Lindy Beige's breastplate and fauld have an ergonomic problem: when he stands in them, they bruise like this.
Your mission, if you choose to accept it, is to explain what you would do if a client came for a fitting and had that issue. You can find this scene about 6 minutes in at https://piped.kavin.rocks/watch?v=L_nCNqjRcAo or YouTube
(The armourer might have his own perspective on why the issue was not fixed- Lindy wanted a '57 Chevy with a Volkswagen engine and a Bentley transmission- but its still a good example of a fitting issue).
It would be helpful to see where the breastplate actually sits on him. I skipped around in the video, but did not find anything.
He's probably moving in the right direction by thinking about padding, but with this caveat. It's better to pad against the sternum and not the clavicles. In general, one should pad against the stationary parts and not the moving parts.
As an aside, the usual culprit for this sort of trouble is the shape of the upper breastplate. As far as I can tell, that shape looks OK here. That is to say it's a shape which should work on most people. The problem here is that Lindy B's shoulders are very high and that is putting his clavicles in harm's way. You can see this in the upward slope of his clavicles. In most people, they are closer to horizontal. He also seems like he may be a bit flatter than most in the upper chest/shoulders. That is to say, his shoulders are farther forward than most. One could probably accommodate this with a breastplate which is unusually shallow across the neck and shoulders, but at this point it's best to deal with it by padding up the sternum.
Now... all that presumes that I have guessed correctly about where this breastplate actually fits him. It may be the case that it sits too low in general. If that's the case there may be two causes. The first is the the waist may be too wide, and the cuirasse is not placing its weight on his pelvis. If this is the case, it might be possible to bend the sides in a bit so it can not slip over his iliac crests. It might also be possible to pad the doublet to artificially widen his pelvis so the armor stays up. The other possibility is that the breastplate is just too short from waist to neck. If that's the problem, it may be possible to lengthen it a bit by reducing the overlap between the upper and lower breastplates. Some extant Gothic armors have the two parts joined with a screw which can be put into one of two or three threaded holes for making just such an adjustment.
Mac
Robert MacPherson
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
My breastplate did the same thing (very different design, and not made by an armourer for me - off the shelf thing) - I have a very pronounced collarbone. My breastplate was too curved at the top, so the corners were biting in on the collarbone. I had to flatten it out (I pounded the "center" of the top curve with a mallet). Without changing the rest of the shape, it flattened the top to sit on my pecs/chest rather than curve into the shoulder/collarbone. I had similar bruising.
Thanks for finding the link! I don't remember that one having any great front, back, and side views.
I think at some point Lindy and his armourer had a falling out because Lindy wanted a 1450s 1490s English German Italian armour. So he does not have anyone nudging him to make and share pictures which would help diagnose the problem.
I wonder if Lindy's anatomy would work well with a gorget under the cuirass? Those tend to be later than he wanted.
Chris Flagstad wrote: ↑Mon May 23, 2022 1:29 am
It looks like he ended up trimming the corners. They look shorter in the later video.
Ironically, that probably just made the problem worse. In the initial situation, the armor sat heavily on the clavicles. Trimming the breast created a situation where movement of the shoulders can now bring the clavicles beyond the armor. This will allow them to strike the edge of the armor. This is worse than simply pressing on them.
Mac
Robert MacPherson
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
Could that be why the cuirass looks a bit low in the new video? If at full height his collarbones are popping over the top of the cuirass, he might leave the shoulder straps a bit loose.
I guess this shows, armour can be broadly reasonable-looking but not work on a specific body. And why you should "get the soft kit first."
Sean M wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 12:28 am
Could that be why the cuirass looks a bit low in the new video? If at full height his collarbones are popping over the top of the cuirass, he might leave the shoulder straps a bit loose.
Does he actually put the cuirasse on in the new video? I skipped through it the other day and did not see anything other than the scenes where he's just holding the breastplate up to himself. In those scenes, the whole thing is too low.
Mac
Robert MacPherson
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
Sean M wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 12:28 am
Could that be why the cuirass looks a bit low in the new video? If at full height his collarbones are popping over the top of the cuirass, he might leave the shoulder straps a bit loose.
Does he actually put the cuirasse on in the new video? I skipped through it the other day and did not see anything other than the scenes where he's just holding the breastplate up to himself. In those scenes, the whole thing is too low.
Mac
I don't think he has the backplate in the new video. I thought he might have cross straps in the new video, but he is a long lean guy, probably he is holding up the breasplate with one hand.
I've skipped through the recent video again, and he doesn't ever give us a pic with the breast actually in the correct place. He just holds it up. I think I understand how it would fit from that scant info, but it would be much more informative to see the thing strapped in place.
Mac
Robert MacPherson
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
Mac wrote: ↑Wed May 25, 2022 12:52 pm
I've skipped through the recent video again, and he doesn't ever give us a pic with the breast actually in the correct place. He just holds it up. I think I understand how it would fit from that scant info, but it would be much more informative to see the thing strapped in place.
Mac
I agree.
Holding it the way he does changes where the clavicle is in relationship to the BP. Strapped and sitting as used would be a very helpful image to see.
John Cope/ Sir Johann ColdIron, Master- Order of the Laurel
I wonder how thin the lower breastplate must be, when it should be hardened carbon-steel, and then dents so easy from a handheld weapon. Alternitive i wonder how scary careless the hit must be done.
Those who find spelling mistakes are allowed to keep hold of them...
Rene K. wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:36 pm
I wonder how thin the lower breastplate must be, when it should be hardened carbon-steel, and then dents so easy from a handheld weapon. Alternitive i wonder how scary careless the hit must be done.
I realize that Loyd says that it is "hardened high carbon steel", but there must be some misunderstanding. To me, the dent and gouge look like the material is not hardened.
Now.. that's not to say that some penis-head did not hit him too hard. That's clearly the case. It's just that the damage doesn't look like what I expect from the material that Loyd says it is.
Mac
Robert MacPherson
The craftsmen of old had their secrets, and those secrets died with them. We are not the better for that, and neither are they.
Rene K. wrote: ↑Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:36 pm
I wonder how thin the lower breastplate must be, when it should be hardened carbon-steel, and then dents so easy from a handheld weapon. Alternitive i wonder how scary careless the hit must be done.
I realize that Loyd says that it is "hardened high carbon steel", but there must be some misunderstanding. To me, the dent and gouge look like the material is not hardened.
Now.. that's not to say that some penis-head did not hit him too hard. That's clearly the case. It's just that the damage doesn't look like what I expect from the material that Loyd says it is.
Mac
Sure makes me wonder as well. Not only on the heat treat of the plackart but also the profile and heat treatment of the weapon head. Certainly seems it was harder than the plackart! Hate to see what it would have done to mail...
Also during his fitment footage it seemed that his pauldrons were sitting lower than I would have liked. That was causing some issues with the BP.
John Cope/ Sir Johann ColdIron, Master- Order of the Laurel
Having recently had my arm harnesses hit with a bastard sword used at full strength by a blacksmith, which left a scuff (I'll try to post pictures this week) that damage really looks odd. If the breastplate was heat treated, what was it treated / tempered to? Quick ad dirty test would be seeing if a file can "cut" the edge (back) of the plackart, or if it "skates". If it cuts, then the heat treating was ineffective, or the temper was drawn out far too long.
Recognizing that this was a thrust and not a "cut" my arm harness (18 ga 1050 hardened to ~RC40) suffered NO deformation at all, and the strikes pushed me back. The sword in question was a Toledo blade (not one of the "costume" ones) although the edge was rebated to ~1/16" thickness with a squared cross section
I notice that the armourer didn't try Mac's and Toby's suggestion that English sabatons were articulated on internal leathers. Lindy had good experience with sabatons articulated on rivets with the toes as the 'highest shingle in the roof' not as the 'lowest shingle in the roof' except that the hook-on-a-post joining the 'heel' to the 'vamp' came loose once and the articulation slowly stiffened up.
It is an "English-German-fickle-customer" styled armour.
The sabatons appear at 6 minutes to 8 minutes in to this video piped.mha.fi or youtube
He also complains about the articulated bits scratching each other. I wonder if the pauldrons etc. need leather strips on the inside around the edges to pad them when the back side touches the cuirass?
Sean M wrote: ↑Tue Nov 08, 2022 7:01 pm
Lindy had good experience with sabatons articulated on rivets with the toes as the 'highest shingle in the roof' not as the 'lowest shingle in the roof' except that the hook-on-a-post joining the 'heel' to the 'vamp' came loose once and the articulation slowly stiffened up.
It's interesting how he says they stayed on pretty well after the hook popped.
I'm glad the sheepskin padding did the trick for the collar bones.
It seems like his placard and breastplate are solidly riveted together.
I'm trying to think where I have seen cuirasses with the breastplate solidly riveted to the plakart, not even a sliding rivet. Fifteenth-century armour is not an area of my expertise. My breast is solidly attached to the fauld / paunce of plates because AFAIK that was just how it was done in 1360s Tuscany.
We have talked about lining the inside of cuisses and those leather strips on the top edge of haut pieces on pauldrons. Is there any evidence for lining the inside of pauldrons so the articulation doesn't scratch the breast? In the 16th century pauldrons sometimes have pickadrils.
As far as I know, fabric and leather liners which are fixed to medieval / renaissance plate armour are normally stitched to leather strips on the edge of the inside which are riveted to the plates.
