New armourers Please show what you are working on.

[Talbot]

As an experienced armourer I'm always curious about what the new folks are making. Please provide pictures if you can or tell us what you are making. I'm helping some new guys make Coppergate helmets.

[Chris Flagstad]

Im working on my arm harness.

[Talbot]

Very nice. The arms are coming along nicely.

[Indianer]

How did You make the cone? It's so sharp it might be rolled, but I can't see a seam. It also looks too clean to be raised?

[Chris Flagstad]

Very nice. The arms are coming along nicely.

Thanks Talbot!

How did You make the cone? It's so sharp it might be rolled, but I can't see a seam. It also looks too clean to be raised?

There welded ala the "House Method" The seams are marked in red.

[Indianer]

Those welds look nicely done, what did U use? Stitch welding with mig or can U TIG already?

[Chris Flagstad]

Thank you!
I used Oxy Acetylene. I hit it with a grinder a little.

They're a bit nastier in person

[Indianer]

I used Oxy Acetylene.

Hadn't even thought about that, I know nothing about it. Impressive Chris!

[Chris Flagstad]

With oxy-acetylene it's nice to have the same tool for welding and heating.
Some people can get really clean and strong welds, but I'm definitely still fumbling around with it.
I've melted some stuff.
The gas is also pretty pricey

[Talbot]

With oxy-acetylene it's nice to have the same tool for welding and heating.
Some people can get really clean and strong welds, but I'm definitely still fumbling around with it.
I've melted some stuff.
The gas is also pretty pricey

I did all of my welded armour with Oxy-Aceteline. Back when I was in production I only had that option. These days I would be more likely to tig it But gas welding is a great option.

[Mac]

Thank you!
I used Oxy Acetylene. I hit it with a grinder a little.

They're a bit nastier in person
20230313_211025.jpg

If you template this so that the weld runs down the medial side of the cop, the weld is under less stress. The starting piece look a bit weird, and be slightly more wasteful, but it is less likely to fail because the weld does not see tension in use.

I can take a pic of a template for this if you would like.

Mac

[Chris Flagstad]

I can take a pic of a template for this if you would like.

Mac

Yes, please!

My original thinking was to pick the spot where the weld would be shortest, but choosing the spot with less strain makes much more sense.

[Mac]

I can take a pic of a template for this if you would like.

Mac

Yes, please!

My original thinking was to pick the spot where the weld would be shortest, but choosing the spot with less strain makes much more sense.

Here is the template I was experimenting with some years ago. It was intended to be raised down over an elbow shaped form after welding. It will produce a rounded elbow, but I'm sure you can extrapolate from this to a pointy elbow if that's what you want.




Now that I am thinking about it, I may actually have a pointy version as well.... These things get a bit vague and misty after a couple of decades. I'll have a look tomorrow.

Mac

[Chris Flagstad]

Here is the template I was experimenting with some years ago. It was intended to be raised down over an elbow-shaped form after welding. It will produce a rounded elbow, but I'm sure you can extrapolate from this to a pointy elbow if that's what you want.

Thank you Mac!

I think I can figure out a pointy one, but I'd definitely appreciate seeing yours if you have it.

I notice that the lame is asymmetrical, does that have something to do with not interfering with the fan?

The pattern reminds me of those later-period elbows where the crease runs horizontally. Is there any correlation?

[Christian Wiedner]

I dont think such a much longer weld is worth it...

[Mac]

I dont think such a much long weld is worth it...

Maybe yes, maybe no. I have made it a practice to never put a weld in a place which will experience much tension in the finished piece. Perhaps I am not a good welder, or perhaps I am a pessimist; but I'd rather have the peace of mind, even if the weld is longer and its placement is unorthodox.

Mac

[Mac]

... and while we are on the subject of my mediocre welding skills...

If I were drafting this template today, I would add the little tabs indicated in red. This has two advantages. The first is that it makes it so that the end of the weld can not be subjected to tensile stress during the subsequent shaping of the cop. The second is that this (usually crappy) part of the weld gets cut off of the finished product. I've been terminating welds like this for quite a while now, and I find it a great benefit.



Mac

[sirfelix]

Mac did you make knees this way? i would be keen to see the template for those as well as the pointed elbows.

having the weld out of articulations and away for the tension in the center weld seems like a great idea.

cheers
felix

[Mac]

Mac did you make knees this way? i would be keen to see the template for those as well as the pointed elbows.

having the weld out of articulations and away for the tension in the center weld seems like a great idea.

cheers
felix

I've not made knees this way. Knees are shallower than elbows, and there is not as much to be gained by a welded construction.

Mac

[Chris Flagstad]

I drafted up a pattern for some over-the-shoulder type spaulders.

Here are some sketches that I was playing with.

[Indianer]

That is one slick way of dealing with the sharp bend over the tip of the shoulder. I think with one big lame like here you'd have to raise it...

Or weld of course...but that'd take just as long.

[Mac]

I drafted up a pattern for some over-the-shoulder type spaulders.
20230323_172049.jpg

Here are some sketches that I was playing with.
20230323_171608.jpg

Let me say something here about general principles. It's best to begin with the part of an armor component which has the most compound curvature and then design your lames to fit that. This is because it's difficult to know what shape the upper an lower lames really have to be until you have the main plate shaped up.

This is a variation of the idea that a process should ideally begin with that "diciest" operation and then move on the the easy ones.

Mac

[Chris Flagstad]

Let me say something here about general principles. It's best to begin with the part of an armor component which has the most compound curvature and then design your lames to fit that. This is because it's difficult to know what shape the upper an lower lames really have to be until you have the main plate shaped up.

This is a variation of the idea that a process should ideally begin with that "diciest" operation and then move on the the easy ones.

Mac

I'm glad you saw this before I cut them out!

The principle makes a lot of sense.
I'm sure it will save me from some future headaches. There have been times when I started with the easiest part to sort of workup the courage, and it's never gone well.


After I make the part that goes over the tip of the shoulder, would you pattern the first lame, make it, then pattern the next, then make that one, so on and so on?

Maybe do the lame that goes against the neck second?

[Chris Flagstad]

That is one slick way of dealing with the sharp bend over the tip of the shoulder. I think with one big lame like here you'd have to raise it...

Or weld of course...but that'd take just as long.

Thank you Indianer, I like the way the crease on the shoulder follows the horizontal crease on the breastplate on that Gondor armor.

[Indianer]

I like the way the crease on the shoulder follows the horizontal crease on the breastplate on that Gondor armor.

You are right, I never even noticed! That thing is astounding. In such simplicity I find so much elegance and beauty. Never could figure out why that is...

I'm fairly certain it is partly due to the slender look, which is owed to the low waist. Too low to agree with any canon, it sits about a hand wide below the natural waist. But the few, crisp lines give it a sense of order and tidyness. I like that.

[Mac]

I'm glad you saw this before I cut them out!

The principle makes a lot of sense.
I'm sure it will save me from some future headaches. There have been times when I started with the easiest part to sort of workup the courage, and it's never gone well.


After I make the part that goes over the tip of the shoulder, would you pattern the first lame, make it, then pattern the next, then make that one, so on and so on?

Maybe do the lame that goes against the neck second?

In general, the lower lames of a shoulder can be templated as a group. I would not necessarily trust the edges to match up perfectly, so I would leave a little extra to be trimmed away during the temporary assembly.

The upper lames probably need to be templated one at a time, starting from the completed cop and working toward the neck.

Now..... since I've mentioned the upper lames, I see that you have not decided whether they will all be the same width or whether they will have some sort of taper. You need to make a decision on that, and the sooner the better. Are you copying these from an English brass? If so, you should do whatever you see there unless there is some compelling reason to do something else. If this is a fantasy piece, you can do it either way, but I recommend making all of the upper lames do the same thing; whatever that is.

Mac

[Chris Flagstad]

Now..... since I've mentioned the upper lames, I see that you have not decided whether they will all be the same width or whether they will have some sort of taper. You need to make a decision on that, and the sooner the better. Are you copying these from an English brass? If so, you should do whatever you see there unless there is some compelling reason to do something else. If this is a fantasy piece, you can do it either way, but I recommend making all of the upper lames do the same thing; whatever that is.

Mac

I was going off of the ones in the picture of the Lingfield effigy in Toby Capwell's book. (pg. 229)
https://effigiesandbrasses.com/3214/2641

Tapered it is!
I think the taper looks nicer and more deliberate as well

I got the shoulders cops made up.

[Indianer]

That was quick! How did you do that? What kind of dish and what hammer? Looks like made cold, right? Is that mild?

[Mac]

I was going off of the ones in the picture of the Lingfield effigy in Toby Capwell's book. (pg. 229)
https://effigiesandbrasses.com/3214/2641

Tapered it is!
I think the taper looks nicer and more deliberate as well

I got the shoulders cops made up.
20230325_101023.jpg
20230325_101059.jpg20230325_101108.jpg

It looks to me like the lames on the shoulders of the Cobham effigy are parallel sided, rather than tapered. Have I misunderstood what you mean?

Note also, that the lowest lame is hinged and fully enclosed cannon which embraces the upper cannon of the arm.

Mac

[Chris Flagstad]

It looks to me like the lames on the shoulders of the Cobham effigy are parallel sided, rather than tapered. Have I misunderstood what you mean?

Note also, that the lowest lame is hinged and fully enclosed cannon which embraces the upper cannon of the arm.
Mac

Mac, I'm confused as well.
By tapered, I meant that the bottom lame by the shoulder is longest in width, and the top lame by the neck is shortest in width. Do you mind clarifying what you meant?

As for the lower lame as an enclosed cannon, that's a really interesting feature.
Is it sort of ahead of its time? It reminds me of 16th and 17th-century arms.
how much overlap with the actual arm canon do you think there is?


In regard to the Lingfield effigy, I have a confession to make.
I got my non-specific arms to a place I was satisfied with, then I flipped through "Armour of the English Knight 1400-1450" like a catalog shopping for spaulder styles.
I picked the Lingfield effigy because I liked the style and it was a clear image.
The picture in the book is cropped and focuses on the shoulders. To be honest, I didn't even see the arm canons. I posted the Effigies and brasses link because I didn't want to copy the image in the book, I just looked at the shoulders in the book and went on my merry way. It was sloppy of me, and bad practice

[Chris Flagstad]

That was quick! How did you do that? What kind of dish and what hammer? Looks like made cold, right? Is that mild?

Yep, it's mild worked cold. If I went any deeper, I think I would have used heat.

This is my dishing stump

I use this for deeper dishing

I used this guys for planishing and working the outside.
I usually give things a first pass over the dumbbell with a big deadblow mallet.

[Chris Flagstad]

I also planish and shape with this

these are the hammers I used to work the outside. the weight of the ballpeen worked a little better than the body hammer.

[Mac]

Mac, I'm confused as well.
By tapered, I meant that the bottom lame by the shoulder is longest in width, and the top lame by the neck is shortest in width. Do you mind clarifying what you meant?

Ah! I wondered if we were on "different pages". I was referring to the "reveal", or amount of exposed lame as being tapered or parallel. I brought it up because one of your sketches showed most of the lames "parallel" and one "tapered" (by my reckoning).

As for the lower lame as an enclosed cannon, that's a really interesting feature.
Is it sort of ahead of its time? It reminds me of 16th and 17th-century arms.
how much overlap with the actual arm canon do you think there is?

It's a thing we see on some English and French armors of the first half of the 15thC. There are no extant examples, so It's all speculation based on what seems to be depicted. I don't know how much overlap there needs to be, but I would make it be at least two finger widths... maybe three. Those short upper cannons we see on some of the extant early 15thC arms might be just the ticket.


Mac

[Indianer]

Hello Chris,

I'm sorry it took me this long to get back to you. Anyway, I made a few pictures for a small project that I can now share - our own Halberds taught me how to make these anticlastic stakes. Its quite simple actually, they are made from these steel pipes, inteded to be welded in waterline construction for heaters or so? The caps are easy to find for anything smaller than 4'' diameter. Drill a how when you're done and fill them with sand to deaden any ring, weld shut after.

Seeing as you can weld and have a few basics already covered, these might come in handy. Also, you rolled the bottom fo the elbows - without a fluting or rolling stake it looks like. What did you use?

Cheers

[Chris Flagstad]

Ah! I wondered if we were on "different pages". I was referring to the "reveal", or amount of exposed lame as being tapered or parallel. I brought it up because one of your sketches showed most of the lames "parallel" and one "tapered" (by my reckoning).



Mac

That makes sense!
Looking back at my sketch, I see where it's not defined.

- our own Halberds taught me how to make these anticlastic stakes. Its quite simple actually, they are made from these steel pipes, inteded to be welded in waterline construction for heaters or so? The caps are easy to find for anything smaller than 4'' diameter. Drill a how when you're done and fill them with sand to deaden any ring, weld shut after.

That's clever! Filling a hollow tool with sand is a good idea.

Seeing as you can weld and have a few basics already covered, these might come in handy. Also, you rolled the bottom fo the elbows - without a fluting or rolling stake it looks like. What did you use?

I use a large masonry chisel that's had the edges and corners rounded off. I can take a picture of it later.
Right now it's just held in a vice, I think I might grind down the other end and pound it into a stump.