Batteredshell’s Cardboard Armour Questions

[Batteredshell]

Hi, I’m new here. I hope this is posted in the right place.

So recently I have a cardboard knight armor set that I’ve been working on for Halloween. I’m aiming to make each piece reflect its real counterpart as well as keeping the same functionality. In doing this I have to learn about and study real armor pieces and how they worked. I know this forum is not for cardboard or costume stuff but I figured that I might be able to use it to help me on my quest for knowledge. Right now I am especially struggling with the greaves and leg armour in general because I don't know how they are supposed to feel and work. This is what I have for the cuisse and knee.


It attaches to a belt by strings at the top and has a pin hole on the demi-greave that attaches to the greave. The greaves I am making are closed greaves.

I guess one of the major things I'm wondering is how the greaves are supposed to interact with rest of the leg armour. First off, am I correct in thinking that the weight of the greaves is not supposed to rest on the sabatons or the ankles?

Are the greaves supposed to support the weight of and hold up the cuisse? What I also mean by this is would the greaves not move at all on the calf and be stuck in place so they could keep the cuisse and knee pushed up?

What keeps the greaves from falling off the calf? I know they need to be really well fitting, but do they have to be super tight also? Legs are squishy, so it seems like anything, no matter how well fitting could still slide down with any small amount of force on it. The only way I can seem to get the greave to stay on my calf is by tightening it so much that it makes my leg muscles cramp and not be able to work as efficiently. I can't imagine that they would wear it with it that tight because I've seen videos of people doing things like running in it, which would require your calf muscles to be at their best. I can run with it this tight, but it is very uncomfortable and puts a strain on my legs. It's almost like when the muscles are compressed, they don't have enough room to expand and contract, thus making my legs feel very weak and unstable. I guess I'm just wondering if that is really how it is supposed to feel when wearing greaves.

How far up is the greave supposed to go near the back of the knee? If you don't go up far enough on the calf, there's nothing for the armour to grab on to. If you go up to where the curve of the calf creates a ledge to support the armour, knee movement is very restricted. When I put it at the lowest it goes without falling off, I can still walk, but I can't lift my leg high enough to reach a stair step without it jabbing me in the back of the knee. Was it just normal for knights not to be able to bend their knee enough to walk up a hill? If anyone has a picture of greaves while on someone's legs from the back that might also be helpful.

Here is also what I have so far for the greave. (left leg)


The edges at the top slant inward. At the bottom back there are two seams to help shape the piece, one on the right for my ankle and tendon area, and one on the left for the curve at the left side of my calf.

Thank you for reading and I hope I've come to the right place!

[Mac]

Your images are not showing up. Check your security settings. If that doesn't work, describe how you handled the image posting and perhaps someone can figure out the problem.

Also, the link brings up s 404 error.... so there's something going wrong there as well.

Mac

[Batteredshell]

Where would I find security settings? Is it something on this forum? I can't seem to find out how to upload a file in a specific place in the text, so I emailed the files to myself, then I dragged the link to download into the text. Then I highlighted the link and there was a button that said "insert image" or something and I clicked on it. The images show up in the text on my screen, but they don't for you? I guess I could attach them as files, but they wouldn't show up in the places in the text I want them.

[Kindyr]

There may be a setting that users with low post counts cannot insert images to prevent Spam accounts from clogging up the forum.

[Batteredshell]

I tried attaching files, did it work? Also, for some reason I can only attach 3 files. When I try to do more, nothing happens.

[Mac]

I see two pictures now.

Mac

[Mac]

What I do for posting images here is this. I put any image I want to post into a Google Photos album. The album must be set so that the pics can be shared by anyone with a link. When I get to a place in the post where I want an image, I click on the the "picture" icon. This produces a pair of brackets like this. (I've added a stray . in one of the brackets so it shows up here like it will in when you are posting)

[img.] [/img]

I then go to the Google Photos album and left click on the photo I want to post. That open that photo. I then right click on the photo. This brings up a box with options. I chose "Copy image link". This puts a url on the clipboard. That URL might look like this. (I've removed one of the /, so it shows up here in its entirety and not just as a truncated link)

https:/lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AMWts8DWyQz9eq108tLCDk-9F19f7GWtrs5bnEsler8f11YohJ2ADo9L3r5mvGyS_mYt_hzsfQuIFoV2KnubVc1MNdiekh3dAMB3pkHYPgFDhZvElsYNT9YGRjVP_Sw32zUXgFh4lVMdoP1Bv6tCRp5IL99VXg=w1033-h775-s-no?authuser=0

I paste the URL into the space between the brackets of the [img.][/img] thingy. The important thing to know is that this board will not accept any image wider than 850 pixels. In the example I showed above we find a thing that says w1033-h755. That's the width and the height. I change that to read w850. There is no need to change the height numbers. The board will alter them automatically to maintain the same aspect ratio as the original picture.

Clicking on the "Preview" button (below) will show you what your post looks like. If all goes well, the pic will appear. If you get an error message, it probably means that you have not changed the with number on one or more of your pictures. Unfortunately, it won't tell you which one, and you have to look carefully to find the omission.

It all seems fussy, but one gets pretty fast at it after a bit.

Mac

[Mac]

I tried attaching files, did it work? Also, for some reason I can only attach 3 files. When I try to do more, nothing happens.

I see a number of things I would change about the cardboard legs. The first one is that the knee needs volume/depth/compound curvature in order to let the lames articulate. You can get that by making it have a seam down the middle. The two halves will have curved edges which come together down the center line.

The next thing that will help is to orient your cardboard so that the corrugations run up and down rather than side to side. That will let you bend it around your leg with less kinking.

While on the subject of material..... I wonder about that corrugated plastic board as a more durable alternative. You can probably get it hot enough with a hair drier to make it take permanent curves. It also comes in colors, and that's got be be better than brown. https://www.amazon.com/Sibe-R-Plastics- ... B0996XKDYN



Mac

[Batteredshell]

I uploaded it to Google Photos and did what you did. Did it work? Also, if I delete the photos from my google photos, will it make them break on the forum?

Good idea about the depth of the knees! As for the direction of the corrugation, I've found that if you bend it against the grain, it actually makes the cardboard want to hold a curved shape more on its own than if you bend it with the grain. I do still have a problem with getting it to stay fully curved enough but it's a better curve than bending with the grain.

[Mac]

I uploaded it to Google Photos and did what you did. Did it work? Also, if I delete the photos from my google photos, will it make them break on the forum?

The pics show up now!

Yes. Deleting them will leave "holes" in this thread.

As for the direction of the corrugation, I've found that if you bend it against the grain, it actually makes the cardboard want to hold a curved shape more on its own than if you bend it with the grain. I do still have a problem with getting it to stay fully curved enough but it's a better curve than bending with the grain.

Hmmm... that makes sense. The inner layer and the corrugations will collapse and wrinkle. The result is a "plastic", rather than an "elastic" deformation. It's sort of analogous to the mechanics of steam bending of wood. I'm used to thinking of cardboard (the un-corrugated stuff) as template material, and always roll it with the grain going lengthwise to avoid kinks.

Mac

[Mac]

So... to address the initial question about greaves.... The important thing about getting greaves hold themselves up is to make the upper part fit your leg closely. The area above the bulgy part of the calf muscle is where the weight must be made to bear. To do this, it must approximate the shape of that area, and be tight enough around the front to keep the back part in close contact. You will probably need to put some sort of strap to keep the greave closed just below the knee. Plate armor has that strap lower down, but it keeps its shape a lot better than cardboard.

I see that you have the cuisses supported at two points. That's a good plan. If you wanted to have only one lace, you could put it more or less midway between those two. In any case, the places where the attach to the cardboard need to be very strong. The laces will see a lot of sudden tension when you move, and you don't want them to rip out.

Mac

[Batteredshell]

Thanks for the info! So do the laces hold the majority of the weight of the cuisse up or do the greaves hold the weight? From wearing and experimenting with the cardboard cuisses and greaves, I feel like it makes the most sense that the greaves support the majority of the weight of the cuisse and act as an anchor point, and then the laces are there to help stabilize the top. Am I right?

[Mac]

Thanks for the info! So do the laces hold the majority of the weight of the cuisse up or do the greaves hold the weight? From wearing and experimenting with the cardboard cuisses and greaves, I feel like it makes the most sense that the greaves support the majority of the weight of the cuisse and act as an anchor point, and then the laces are there to help stabilize the top. Am I right?

If we were talking about steel armor I would not hesitate to say the weight of the cuisses must be supported by a belt or doublet. Whether or not that's true in a light material like cardboard, I can not say for sure.

Mac

[Batteredshell]

When I tighten the laces enough to hold the cuisse up, I've had problems of feeling like the laces are yanking violently up on or letting the cuisse and greaves fall down every time I move my leg. How is this problem solved or what might I be doing wrong? It almost feels like there needs to be a sort of compression or give within the knee joint to allow for stretching and compression.

[Keegan Ingrassia]

Looking at your suspension points, the black laces on your cuisses will do the majority of the heavy lifting. The distance there from your hip to your waist does not change as drastically when walking forward, so it will minimize the fall/jerk sensation.

Conversely, the white laces keep the top demi-cuisse from drooping, but also help support the weight when you are moving in a lateral fashion, such as sidestepping.

[JT]

I uploaded it to Google Photos and did what you did. Did it work? Also, if I delete the photos from my google photos, will it make them break on the forum?

As Mac already said... yes, that worked. And yes, anything you link to that is not on the Archive will disappear/break if you remove them from their linked-from location. (In other words, putting in a IMG or URL tag does not actually copy the object from its location to the Archive... it just creates a link to grab it (or go to it) from that remote location.)

You should have the ability to add attachments to your posts. Down below the message box window that you type your message in, underneath the buttons to "Save draft" "Preview" and "Submit" is a box that has "Options" to apply to your message. But there is another TAB on that form -- "Attachments."

If you click on the "Attachments" link/tab/whatever, that box will change to let you "Add Files" (and also give info on how to drag&drop files into a message directly.

Note that these attached files need to start out on your computer/device. You cannot directly attach an image that is on the web; instead, you need to downoad it to your computer, and then attach it by adding it and uploading it from your computer. Please do this only with files that are not copyright protected!

[Batteredshell]

Why can I only attach 3 files?

[Batteredshell]

Thanks for the info about the white and black laces! I'm unsure if that will fix the problem entirely but I'll give it a try and it should help a lot!

Ok, so I've put the greaves on pause for now. As I was fiddling with the cuisse, I noticed that the articulations were not rotating on the pins in a normal healthy way and that the cuisse was too small to fit properly around the side of my leg. Long story short I realized that I needed to widen every part in the cuisse and move the pin holes closer to the edges so that they will be in line with each other to allow full rotation. I widened every part by one inch on each side and now it is able to wrap around my leg perfectly. Once I did this it fixed the rotation of the lames, they were able to move smoother. Because the lames were able to move smoother, it made me realize that I had not made them to properly articulate. When I bend the knee, the lames are supposed to catch each other at the end of their rotation, but instead they just slide past one another and go too far, creating a large gap and failing to pull the surrounding lames evenly across the knee. What am I missing?












(Sidenote- the cardboard still wants to stay straight, so for now I just keep it bent with my hand when trying to observe it. Very soon I'm planning to experiment to see if soaking cardboard in paper mache liquid and letting it dry in a curved shape would make the cardboard stay in a rigid curved form.)

I tried taking Mac's advice about adding depth/curvature to the knee. It probably could be better, but I tried. I might improve or make further modifications to it if you guys think it would help with making the lames catch one another better. I also modified the cuisse thigh piece slightly by inverting the arc of the U shaped bottom to allow for the lame between the knee and thigh piece to move better.

(also, the board didn't maintain my image ratio when I set the width to 850. How do I get it to maintain the ratio?)

[human]

hot melt glue is your friend for cardboard, also a good channel is rjr productions and lookup cardboard knight armour on youtube, it'll help. I made cardboard armour before anything else.

[Mac]

Deepening the knee was just "part one". The lames will need a different shape to work properly.

I will eventually get to describing them in my articulation thread, but it will be another week or two. In the mean time, show me a pic of what that lame looks like when laid flat, and I'll sketch over that pic and post it here.

Mac

[Batteredshell]

Ok, I'll send you all of the knee pieces in order, flattened. Can you tell me how to keep the original image ratio? I don't want my images to be stretched out in case it throws people off as far as what the shape of my pieces are.

[Mac]

Ok, I'll send you all of the knee pieces in order, flattened. Can you tell me how to keep the original image ratio? I don't want my images to be stretched out in case it throws people off as far as what the shape of my pieces are.

If you just set the width of the image to 850, the height will adjust automatically to maintain the aspect ratio. I've only seen this fail once. In any case, you can view it by pushing the "preview" button right next to the "submit" button to see it it worked.


Mac

[Batteredshell]

It didn't auto adjust. You can tell by some of the pictures that it's stretched because the pins are oval shaped instead of a circle.

[Mac]

It didn't auto adjust. You can tell by some of the pictures that it's stretched because the pins are oval shaped instead of a circle.

Hmmm..... What was the width of the image file? The one time I had this fail recently is was with a very wide file. There may be limits.

If the file was very wide (say.. more than 1000 or so ) try photographing at lower resolution, or reducing the file size in MS Paint or some other program. You might also try taking the pic with the camera oriented "portrait" rather than "landscape". My usual pics oriented that way will fit without having to mess with the width at all.

Mac

[Keegan Ingrassia]

Take out the chunk after the width, and leave the user authentication modifier.

So instead of this:
=w850-h873-s-no?authuser=0

Just have this:
=w850?authuser=0

[Batteredshell]

Yay it worked!! Thank you! I updated the old pictures.

[Mac]

Take out the chunk after the width, and leave the user authentication modifier.

So instead of this:
=w850-h873-s-no?authuser=0

Just have this:
=w850?authuser=0

Suddenly, I'm having all sorts of aspect ratio troubles as well. I've done like you suggest for my next articulation post, and it does the trick. Thank you!

Now I'm worried about whether something has changed and all my old posts will look tall and skinny. I can't bear to look right now.....

Mac

[Batteredshell]

Here are all of the lames/pieces of the knee besides the thigh piece. this is for the right leg. The top lame is special as you can see it gets wider on the right and narrower on the left to allow for the curve of the leg.

[JT]

Why can I only attach 3 files?

Attached files take up Archive server space.

[Mac]

Here are all of the lames/pieces of the knee besides the thigh piece. this is for the right leg. The top lame is special as you can see it gets wider on the right and narrower on the left to allow for the curve of the leg.

It looks like you have them all in backwards. If you turn them around they will work better. There are still improvements to be made, though. I'll sketch some lines tomorrow. It's late now.

Mac

[Mac]

Here are all of the lames/pieces of the knee besides the thigh piece. this is for the right leg. The top lame is special as you can see it gets wider on the right and narrower on the left to allow for the curve of the leg.

The image has gone missing....

I cut and pasted the URL, but (at the time of writing) there is nothing there.

Mac

[Batteredshell]

That's really weird! On my phone the image is missing from the post, but when I go on the computer, it's there. I just realized that the photo is not in the correct folder in google photos. I really don't know why the image is gone from the website but I guess I'll try adding it back again. Sorry if it disappeared while you were in the middle of something! Is it fixed?

[Mac]

That's really weird! On my phone the image is missing from the post, but when I go on the computer, it's there. I just realized that the photo is not in the correct folder in google photos. I really don't know why the image is gone from the website but I guess I'll try adding it back again. Sorry if it disappeared while you were in the middle of something! Is it fixed?

It's back now!

Mac

[Mac]

I don't make any promises that this will fly right out of the box, but it will get you started. The old pivot holes are almost certain to be in the wrong places now, but with a bit of trial and error you should be able to get them about right. From there it's a question of messing around with this "theme" till it works. Give it a try and post what you get. I'll see if I can suggest further improvements from there.



Mac

[Batteredshell]

I made a breakthrough!

So initially I just tried flipping the lames. That was better, but something still wasn't right. I made some modifications to where the holes were placed on the lame above the demi-greave. That caused it to have more articulation movement between the lame and the demi-greave which gave the knee overall a little more range. I realized that the lames closest to the knee plate were having trouble rotating and that I needed to make the knee plate even deeper, specifically on the sides. I had some trouble at first but eventually I figured out that I needed to first extend the sides of the plate, then add more slits. I didn't know if it would work at first, but when I put it on, I was super pleased. All of the lames fully articulate and catch at the end of their rotations. Sometimes I still have problems with the lame between the cuisse and the knee when I bend it too far, but it catches for the most part.

I am really happy how it turned out. Basically what solved it was flipping the plates and deepening the sides of the knee.





I also went and added all the things that were on my old legs to these ones. (The wrap around plates, the straps, and the strings)

Now I can work on my greaves.