Batteredshell’s Cardboard Armour Questions

[human]

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... ght+armour https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDWHBhOweY4 and https://www.youtube.com/@combobulous7044 should all help out with this project

[Batteredshell]

Thanks! The first one I've already seen, and I'm trying to make it more realistic than they are. The second one is a gold mine! I don't know how I've never seen this before, but it's definitely right up my alley.

[human]

yeah, when I made cardboard armour I spent waaaay to much time online looking for cardboard armour stuff

[human]

i can probably find more if you would like it

[Batteredshell]

Ok, so back to the greaves. I'm going to bombard you guys with questions. How do closed greaves stay up again? Is fabric worn under them? Are they supposed to stay up on their own, or is their weight supported by the ankle or demi-cuisse? What do they feel like? How heavy are they? How tight are they?

[Batteredshell]

Also, for some reason for the greave to stay up on my right leg, I have to pull it much tighter than the left leg, and even then, the shape doesn't fit quite the same. It's almost like my right leg is much squishier than the left. Could this maybe have something to do with having a dominant walking leg? Is this a normal problem that people have to work around with greaves?

[Keegan Ingrassia]

• They stay up by virtue of their shape, specifically the top third, supporting itself upon your calf muscle.
• Absolutely fabric underneath, yes. Helps keep things in place.
• They stay up on their own, and the weight should never rest on your ankle or instep.
• They feel like a slim pair of slacks, I suppose. When they fit right, you can forget you're wearing them.
• Should be as light as you can make them. Extra weight at your extremities slows you down and tires you out.
• They're only tight at the top third, fit like a second skin. Doesn't cut in hard anywhere.

Here's some resources to help:
viewtopic.php?p=2709682#p2709682
viewtopic.php?p=2709684#p2709684

Both of those posts are a quick look at the shape and function. Both also have links to much larger discussions on the details.

[human]

something that might help you is also some cuisses have holes for a pin on the graves that lines them up, and some also have strapes or staple like metal bits for the bottom strap of the cuisse to go through like this: or

[human]

and

[Batteredshell]

Ooh! Those pictures are good! I wish I had seen those before. I think I finally figured out the greaves. I still don't know why one leg fits better than the other, but I realized that it's not as huge of a problem as I first thought it was. Here's a picture of me wearing the completed legs:



I'll probably fix my broken cardboard cuirass next and then work on the faulds. Thank you guys for the help so far!

[Batteredshell]

Ok, so onto the cuirass and faulds. I was wondering how far down a cuirass is supposed to cut off. Right now I have it cut off about at the belly button. Is that normal? I plan on making faulds that will be attached to it.

[human]

I'd make it longer, then add a dart that I put together to get a more cuirass-ey shape

[Mac]

Ok, so onto the cuirass and faulds. I was wondering how far down a cuirass is supposed to cut off. Right now I have it cut off about at the belly button. Is that normal? I plan on making faulds that will be attached to it.

For most breastplates, the waist is just above the superior iliac crests.



This allows the waist to be narrow, and the weight of the armor to be born largely by the pelvis. If I were to guess from your pic, I'd say that's about one or two finger widths higher than what you have. It's important to note that the iliac crest is higher toward the back and lower toward the belly. This means that the waist of the breastplate can slope down if front. Depending on style, this slope can be barely noticeable, or it can be quite extreme.

We discuss this a bit here.

Mac

[Batteredshell]

So where you say the cuirass should end- you are talking about the small squishy area between the bottom of the ribs and the top of the hip, right? Also, that post you linked was very helpful for visualizing how it should be shaped and much more. I just love a good diagram!

[Mac]

So where you say the cuirass should end- you are talking about the small squishy area between the bottom of the ribs and the top of the hip, right? Also, that post you linked was very helpful for visualizing how it should be shaped and much more. I just love a good diagram!

Yes. The waist of the typical cuirasse is in the space between ribs and pelvis. Note that the navel is not a rreliable landmark. It's relationship to the skeleton varies from person to person. Likewise one can not rely on the idea that the waist is "at the level of the elbows". The elbow location not only relies on the lengths of the humeri, but the height of the shoulder joints. That later varies wildly from individual to individual, and may not even be the same from left to right. Ultimately it's the location of the pelvis; and specifically the iliac crests that matters. Luckily, one can find the right place easily enough just by poking around.

Mac

[Batteredshell]

So, I've noticed that when I put the cuirass on, since it falls around my belly button area, it also happens to fall where there is a bulge of fat/extra skin. (It's that small hump on the belly. I'm sure everyone has one of their own, not necessarily because they are fat, but just because it's a part of human form, right?) Anyways, when I lean forward, the edge of the cuirass kind of catches on that part of my belly and wants to push the skin downwards. Have you noticed this problem? It can be uncomfortable to have it dig into the soft part of my belly. The only things I could think of is A. Maybe people back then didn't have as much of a noticeable bump on their belly because they weren't fed as much, but I feel like even all people (unless they were starving) back then would have had that same bump, especially if they were part of nobility like knights. Or B. Maybe the knights wore clothing that was tight enough to compress that section of the belly so that it wouldn't catch. What do you think?

[Mac]

So, I've noticed that when I put the cuirass on, since it falls around my belly button area, it also happens to fall where there is a bulge of fat/extra skin. (It's that small hump on the belly. I'm sure everyone has one of their own, not necessarily because they are fat, but just because it's a part of human form, right?) Anyways, when I lean forward, the edge of the cuirass kind of catches on that part of my belly and wants to push the skin downwards. Have you noticed this problem? It can be uncomfortable to have it dig into the soft part of my belly. The only things I could think of is A. Maybe people back then didn't have as much of a noticeable bump on their belly because they weren't fed as much, but I feel like even all people (unless they were starving) back then would have had that same bump, especially if they were part of nobility like knights. Or B. Maybe the knights wore clothing that was tight enough to compress that section of the belly so that it wouldn't catch. What do you think?

The cuirasse should compress the waist from side to side, but not from front to back. This may be difficult to achieve with cardboard. The addition of a flange to support the skirts will stiffen the cuirasse a bit, but probably not enough. You might consider gluing in some sort of stiffener at the waist. A length of 1/4" steel rod might do the trick. You can get it at the Home Despot, and it will not be too difficult to bend to shape.

Mac

[Batteredshell]

That's actually really helpful! Another question. Do faulds use full articulation with pins, or riveted leather strips that allow it to compress? Or does it really depend on the piece? I found a pattern for a cuirass with faulds on the pattern archive (https://www.armourarchive.org/patterns/ ... te_sinric/). It seems like the rivets are on the wrong side compared to most of the faulds I've seen, which makes me think that this one uses leather strips that compress instead of articulation. Am I right?

[Mac]

That's actually really helpful!

You seem surprised.

Another question. Do faulds use full articulation with pins, or riveted leather strips that allow it to compress? Or does it really depend on the piece? I found a pattern for a cuirass with faulds on the pattern archive (https://www.armourarchive.org/patterns/ ... te_sinric/). It seems like the rivets are on the wrong side compared to most of the faulds I've seen, which makes me think that this one uses leather strips that compress instead of articulation. Am I right?

It does indeed depend on what you are basing your armor on. Sometimes the skirts are on pivots, and sometimes they are on internal leathers. In general, if the breast and back are joined by hinges on one side, the skirts must be on leathers. If the breast and back are separate, it could go either way.

The armor you have linked to has the skirts on internal leathers. One should not be able to see any of the rivets that attach those leathers except for the ones on the lowest lames. That it to say, they are normally concealed by the overlap of the plates, except where that is impossible.

Mac

[Batteredshell]

Mac, since I joined, I have always been surprised at how helpful your posts are...

If it's no trouble to you, do you have any pictures of what the inside of faulds with leather strips might look like, just for reference? I think I have it figured out, I just want to make sure I'm not missing anything.

[human]

this is a picture of a long tasset with leather articulation

[human]

you could probably use duct tape, and also you might want to make your breatplate abit bigger then add that triangular gutout of dart in the lower center to try and get a better shape for your curiass

[Batteredshell]

That's a good picture! I made some changes to my breastplate that I will probably post a picture of soon. The changes didn't turn out as well as I'd hoped, but they still make it better than the block I had before. In the picture it looks like it has both leather and rivet articulation, correct? And just to make sure, there were faulds that relied purely on leather strips for compression and no metal pins for articulation, right?

[human]

yes, there were examples where plates were riveted straight to leathers to articulate but this one uses probably sliding rivets on the edge for it, it was just the first picture of what I want, but i have found more like this

[Mac]

If it's no trouble to you, do you have any pictures of what the inside of faulds with leather strips might look like, just for reference? I think I have it figured out, I just want to make sure I'm not missing anything.

I have not been able to come up with an internal view of a fauld which is entirely on internal leathers. It's a system that flourished in the 15thC, and there are few survivors . I'm sure there are some pics out there, but I was not able to turn any up.

As soon as cuirasses stopped being hinged down one side, the fauld and cullet with pivots quickly took over. These frequently have an internal strap running down the center, but function of this strap is more about presiding over an orderly and equal collapse of the lames than it is about actually holding them up.

Mac

[Sean M]

If replicas are OK, the fauld of my breast is all on leathers, no steel-to-steel articulations. I would have to dig out a photo.

Edit: here is Piotr F's interpretion of the breastplate and fauld from the Pistoia Altarpiece

[human]

first off, that breastplate looks beautiful, and second, even if its not the most historical is would probably be easier to just use strong tapes and "rivet" it to the carboard to give the same king of movement as on all leathers.

[Batteredshell]

That's interesting! I have an update on my faulds and cuirass. I decided to just do rivet articulation with leather for support, and it turned out well other than the fact that the bottom edge of the backplate isn't curved enough, keeping the lames from sitting all the way down in their resting position, causing a split between the front and back faulds. Other than that, I think it turned out good.

[human]

If you ever redo the breast plate you might just want to make one dart down the lower middle of the front then hot glue it together, also it's looking good.

[Batteredshell]

What is the dart you keep talking about? What does dart mean?

[Keegan Ingrassia]

It's a term from tailoring fabric. It means to remove a triangle of material, then close up the gap.

Since most breastplates have a central ridge, putting a single, taller dart in the middle would work towards that shape pretty conveniently.

[human]

Ive tried it before and it worked especially well for a globose breastplate, also sorry for not defining what I meant

[Batteredshell]

I made an armor stand and put all of my armor on it. The latter photo is actually outdated because I made improvements to the stand since then. Here is what I have so far.





I couldn't figure out how armor displays kept the arms floating, so I just stuck a temporary pin attaching the arm to the cuirass. I still have the gauntlets, helmet, and sabatons not done, but I can't decide if I want to make the gauntlets because they sound really hard.

[human]

there is a tutorial here : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fj1hxkiUt7Y also your gorget should fit under your breastplate, and it all looks beautiful

[Batteredshell]

Ok, I'm wondering about gorgets and helmets. I'm going to refer to the terms armet and close helmet. I just want to make sure that others don't have a different image that comes to mind when I refer to one of those terms. When I say armet, I'm referring to a helmet that is accessed by opening two side plates that hinge open. When I refer to a close helmet, I'm talking about a helmet that is accessed by having front and back halves of the helmet connected by a rivet on the sides so it can pivot or rotate open.

In this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNw0FjFp-tw&t=53s , I saw that the helmet (armet) and the gorget could come apart and be two pieces, and they connected to each other when the armet was closed over the gorget. Can this same layout of a separate articulated gorget and a helmet that closes over the top of the gorget be applied to a close helmet? In most of the pictures I've seen of close helmets with neck protection, the gorget is usually attached directly to the helmet instead of it being two pieces.

Also, after you've answered the previous question, I was wondering when that style of close helmet with the gorget fused to the helmet would have been used, whether if it was mostly for tournaments where you didn't need to turn your neck or if it was used in battle too.