The Armour Archive

Did viking helms really have cheek plates and neck guard or is that something that the SCA does and it just got picked up by others. I've got a few books and in them the helms have the spectacle or they look like the "norman" helm". I just purchesed a helm off ebay and it has the cheek guards and neck guard what I guess I'm trying to ask is should I cut them off so I have a more authintic helm?

did all Viking helmets have cheek guards? No.
I dont think that "most" Viking helms had them, but some did, for example the sutton hoo helm:
[img]http://www.routiers.org/hoo1a.jpg[/img]
Image hosted on the routiers website here

Most likely the helm you have has the cheek guards and what not added to meet the SCa safety rules. (unless it isn't a SCA helm) removing those options would get you bounced from a feild of combat.

-+G

The sutton hoo helmet is anglican and dated roughly between 600/700, to early to be "viking", and is assumed to be a decorated/refurbished sassinad roman cav helm. The sutton hoo as well as the valsgarde/vendal helms are often thought of as viking likely due to their geographical origin, but are infact attributed to earlier cultures.
Viking helms tended to be conical, raised or spangen, often with nasals, and to my knowlage without cheeks or neck protection
Cheeks seem to have fallen out of favour by the "viking" period.
Cheeks and skirts on sca helms are as rev george stated are to meet saftey regs.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by White Mountain Armoury:
<B>Viking helms tended to be conical, raised or spangen, often with nasals, and to my knowlage without cheeks or neck protection
Cheeks seem to have fallen out of favour by the "viking" period.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Viking helmets are in fact not conical, that is a later period, the Normans did use them. Viking helmet founds are just a few and they are round. Other types of helmets are found in the same time period as vikings but they are from other cultures, maybe, we don not know, did the vikings use them as well.

Here is a page were you can read about helmets, unfortunately in German, but there are some pictures.
Helmets

You are correct olaf the found helms are round like the Gjermundbm, it is infact i believe the only true viking helm found , but i can go through my books and show you many examples of conical helms depicted in viking art. for example a viking picture stone from Lillbjars, Gotland clearly depicts a viking in his baggy pants and his conical helm.
There is also a pic from the Osberg tapestry clearly depicting a warrior with a conical helm. there is also a statue viking statue of Thor in the national museum of iceland clearly depicted wearing a conical helm.
Infact the viking trade with other peoples of the batlic area (rus for example) influenced viking culture, conical helms were
a common style in this era.
there is also the isle of lewis chess set believed to be viking, plenty of conical helms there, also a stone carving from middleton yorkshire depicting a viking with all his important items, shield , spear , sword, conical helm. There is even a painting of the varengian gaurd all depicted in conical helms.
If you get a copy of vikings recreated in color photos you will see well researched viking reinactors and living history groups, many in conical helms.
its one of the styles of the time.

AB/WMA

I was going to jump straght in with examples but WMA took all the ones I could think of off the top of my head. Except the Byzantine mural depicting the Varangian Guard wearing conical helms. These may have initially come from the byzantine armories, but would most likely have been carried back to the homeland through trade, returning soldiers, or the discussion of armour ideas. Kind of a river born UBB, really slow through-put though. "Say Olaf you ever thought of making you helmets pointy? They have this really nifty tendency to cause swords to skip off instead of catching on all those rivets like the ones you make."
IMO the occular Gjermundbu find is a helm similar in status to the Sutton Hoo helm. The Gjermundbu is a left over from the earlier style represented by the Valsgarde grave goods. It has survived into the modern era (c.800) as either a prize heirloom or as a reconstruction of the particular style. My open speculation is that in the opening years of the "viking" period (aggressive Norse expansionism) there were many helms of the valsgarde style floating around. Over time the style changed, more conical shaped helms started to be seen so that by the end of the period most western european warriors were wearing conical helms.

If you wish to split hairs and argue semantics then you are right, viking manufactured helmets were roundish not pointed. This arguement would however be based on exactly one helmet found in an indentifiably norse grave. Since the scandinavian cultures were very very fond of using inports, in fact much of their economy was loosely based on the idea of importing things. Frankish sword blades were highly prized, they would be fitted with hilt furniture by local artisans. So if they imported blades its likely they imported helms too.
But thats just my opinion

Um,
that above mentioned chess set shows ear/cheek defenses.
The Coopergate helmet has cheek pieces but I don't know when "Vikings" begin -- the Coopergate is 8th cent (I believe).

Pendantic nit pic --
Rus = Scandinavian (Viking for your purposes)
(the primary chronicle says "year such-n-such - the Rus came to take tribute from (inser slavic tribe here)")

------------------
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Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)

What I'm really trying to find out is if viking helms looked like the one you can get from Museum Replicas with the cheek and neck guard. I recently got one for LARPing and all the pictures I've seen don't have the guards. I only payed $102.50 for it. I think that if I removed the guards and put attach a coif it will look more like a "real Viking." ??
Chris

I dont understand the statement rus=scandinavian, also the chess set does show cheeks, no neck protection though, and definatly conical.
and the coppergate roughly dates to the late 600's not the 800's
Also correct me if im wrong but olaf states "The Viking helmets are in fact not conical, that is a later period, the Normans did use them" didnt Didnt harold fight and defeat vikings just prior to hastings, that would put william duke of normandy, harold the saxon king and the vikings pretty much all together at the same time, conical helms and all.
As for your MRL helmet looking like a viking helm, well post a link to it so we can see and then we can let you know

Yes
Take away those guards.
So your helm will look more autenthic "viking helm".

Chris - Cheek Plates - There are some helms from the 'viking age' (Defined by most to be 793-1066), that had cheek plates They work quite well in combination with a nasal to protect the face.

Neck guard - All helms I have seen from that time period do not have a rigid neck/back of the head protection. There is usually a maille drape (Coppergate), or dogbone chain links (Pioneer).

As for Rus= Scandinavian. In the mid 8th century, Scandinavians (Specifically Swedes), took over Kiev and Norgord(sp?). They ruled this area for a good hundred years or so. Rus in Finnish actually means Swede. The reason for this is that the Swedes passed down the river that Kiev and other cities are on to head south towards Miklagard (Istanbul).

Overall, my person answer to your question Chris is leave the cheek guards, attach them under your chin (Assuming they are on leather hinges), remove the neck guard, and drape maille from the helm top from cheek plate to cheek plate.

Brandr hinn Rusli

Here is the link
http://store.museumreplicas.com/cgi-bin/www11650.storefront
chris

Their 'viking' helm is a copy of Gjermundbu helm. The original helm did not have the back/neck plate or the cheek plates.

For yours I would say keep the cheek plates. They will make it easier for the helm to stay on your head if you do it up under your chin. This is of course assuming you put a padded liner or suspension system in the top.

Ditch the back plate, drape mail along that top edge cheek plate to cheek plate, You can even attach it to the cheek plates to decrease the 'flop' factor, this is what was done on the coppergate.

You won't be 'perfect' but you will have the look, and should be moderately comfortable wearing it.

Brandr hinn Rusli

you realy think its a copy of the ? its very diff from it, the shape of the occulars, the size/shape of the bands and the occulars are not cut into browband like the Gjermundbu, it looks alot like a helm made by lonely mountain forge.

WMA - Poor phrasing on my part. I should say that the helm is in the 'style' or spirit of the gjermundbu helm. That is the helm that I think it most closely resembles.

It is not a replica helm, but would be in that 'style'.

Not a great helm if you want to do Regia or other re-enactment activities, but for LARP, and even SCA most will get the idea of what you are after and you will have your 'look'.

Brandr hinn rusli