My dumb idea...

[Halberds]

Greetings;

To:
The members that responded


The great helm kit project is nearing completion.
95% of the design and development is finished.
You may of seen the black and white one (prototype #3).

I have to spend more time on the final cad files.

So here is my quandary:

After doing the business plan as per the Archive tutorial, the sale price comes to $89.95.
The kit includes:
Plasma CNC cut great helm flat pieces 16ga. or 14ga. hot rolled steel.
Preformed 10ga. top.
1/8" rivets.
2" mushroom armouring tool. (required to shape the top front and back pieces)
Instructions.

Therefore the quandary:

Is it worth my time to finish this project,?
My assembled helm is bid at $60.00
That is a $29.95 net loss.

Was it a dumb idea after all.

Hal

[Alcyoneus]

I'm assuming that includes some of the 'development' costs. Is that inclusive of the total cost of that portion, or just X%, based on a production run of N?

[ROC]

I still think it.s a good idia.A new fighter or some one who wants to try there hand at armouring that doesent have many tools Can build A rather nice looking great helm for under 100$.I would have ordered that kit two years ago when I was trying to get started.
ROC

[Halberds]

Tks. ROC

The former Alcy.

[Dufnial Hardraada]

Personally I think it is a good idea, because a kit like this is mainly intended for someone starting out, in my opinion. It allows them to make the great helm for themselves and only gain experience instead of profit. This may be frustrating to some, but I suppose it is a better buy for people who just want to make themselves a great helm.

So, to conclude, this is a good idea under the circumstance that it is bought by people who only want to make a great helm for themselves.

Good work, Hal

[Alcyoneus]

So, if you sold a second at the same price, you would either lose less money, break even, or make a profit?

[Kalle Ommer]

Well, I think this is a good kit. If you´ve never done a piece of armour before, you can see it from the pattern to the final piece.

This gives you an understanding about the pattern and of course your first helmet

The new fighter learns that he can build his own armour. This helps to get more fighters started and even more important .... this helps to keep the plastic armour from the field. If I learn, that I can build my own metal armour, why spend a lot of $$$ to buy hockey equipment?

Just my 0.2 €

Kalle

[Cap'n Atli]

Go for it: Advertise it as a "Beginner's Lesson in Armoring". You're providing tools, information and experience that they can use over-and-over. You're not really just selling them a helm; you're selling them "an experience"!



"Weell, Dad, it was a learning experience." (First son describing first car wreck.)

[adric]

First of all a helm for under 100 bucks is steal. second there are still a lot of days left on your auction. It should still climb as time runs out. and not that many folks have looked at it and even of those that have most of em have at least one hat now. Thirdly butting the kit on ebay or some where that gets huge exposure should let the stuff sell beter. Besides this is a shot at experience and not just the finished project. And the hard part is already formed. How many folks are asking for patterns? I would press on unless you are have some big up fronts to contend with.

[InsaneIrish]

I agree with alcy. If you sell 3 kits at $60 that is a total of $180. and you only have $90 in it. That is a $90 profit.

Believe me you will sell at least three kits.

How do I know?

There is an event coming up in May and I fighting unit I am part of is looking into buying some cheap great helms.

Whoala!
I will take one
I know another will take one.

There is 2 right there.

[Mad Matt]

Ok well this is kinda hijacking. Insane irish I've got 3 greathelm kits for sale. The top half of the helms are already assembled all you need to do is curve and attach the lower 2 plates. They're $75 each 14ga cold rolled mild (actually they're hot rolled pickled and oiled which means there's no mill scale like cold rolled).

Halberds. I've not sold 1 of the three kits I made and have listed them on the archive a couple times. I did give one to Mavriki to cover the shipping for some stuff he was supposed to send me (which I never got).

[Brandr]

Greetings;

To:
The members that responded


The great helm kit project is nearing completion.
95% of the design and development is finished.
You may of seen the black and white one (prototype #3).

I have to spend more time on the final cad files.

So here is my quandary:

After doing the business plan as per the Archive tutorial, the sale price comes to $89.95.
The kit includes:
Plasma CNC cut great helm flat pieces 16ga. or 14ga. hot rolled steel.
Preformed 10ga. top.
1/8" rivets.
2" mushroom armouring tool. (required to shape the top front and back pieces)
Instructions.

Therefore the quandary:

Is it worth my time to finish this project,?
My assembled helm is bid at $60.00
That is a $29.95 net loss.

Was it a dumb idea after all.

Hal

So are you saying that for about $90 I would get everything I needed to make a great helm as pre-cut pattern peices AND a 2" mushroom stake?

And then you say a great helm would retail for $60 if you made it for me?

I don't see a problem in that case. I am getting a mushroom stake out of the deal if I buy the kit. And $60 for a helm is way under priced from what I have seen.

So what would you sell one of those mushroom stakes for anyway?

Brandr

[MPorter]

Actually the $60 great helm is currently involved in an auction running in the classifieds on this forum. I believe it is up to $65 now.

Yes, the kit does include the items he mentioned. No, premade helms from Hal will probably not go for $60, but one of the helms made while the patterns were being refined for the kits is up for sale to the highest bidder as already mentioned.

[Cap'n Atli]

I think you should consider other markets than here (where so many folks do their own). Advertise; compare and contrast your helm kit to the stuff that people come across in Museum Replica catalogs and the like. Make up several kits for Prennsic or other large Scadian events. Consider it not so much as a "helm" kit but as an "armorer's starter kit." Offer uprated kits with a couple of more tools. ("...and with the DELUX kit we provide a genuine gold plated hammer and a real black walnut dishing stump, as well as...")

Push the "Make your own helm and learn armoring" aspect.

Also, remember that you're dealing with a bunch of cheap folks on this BB. Some of us might think about picking up your helm cheap at the auction, and then selling it for double that in another venue. The market and the money is out there; you just need to find it. Broaden your horizons...

[Dan Davis]

Hal,
The Cap'n has a point- If I want a barrel helm I'll go pick one up off'n the pile but if I were in the market for a complete kit and instructions you'd be in business.

[Halberds]

Thank you gentlemen for your words of encouragement.

Tonight; I spent another 8 hours refining my cad patterns, using the prototype #3 black and white helm as a reference. The final tweaking has been done...

The advice about broadening ones horizons is well taken; however this is the only armouring family I know.

Tomorrow; I go back to the cutting shop with my 4th. generation files.
Wish me luck...

Halberds

Ps: No one has asked me for these patterns. When they are finished, I will offer them to the forums. This whole exercise is designed to provide pre cut steel patterns and tools, to those that do not have a way of cutting sheet steel...

[James of York]

Greetings Halbreds, I dont want to be the pessimist or sound too harsh, but I believe the main problem (based on my experience) is the lack of confidence a newbie has in his armouring ability. I think adding spaulder kits, clamshell gauntlet kits and maybe even lamillar to your products could be profitable also the novice armourer could improve their armoring skills before tackling a helm.
Second consideration is price. My thought process is "how much more would I have to spend so I DONT have to do the work myself". I cant see any sence in working 5-6 hours on a project to save $10.00.
I hope I didn't offend anyone it is just my opinion and you know what they say about opinions.

[Padrig]

...however this is the only armouring family I know.

And that's just as well. We sure don't want to share you with anybody else.

...Ps: No one has asked me for these patterns.

Probably because since you are developping something for sale, people don't want to be rude in asking for the patterns. But we sure would love to have them believe me.

Pad

[St. George]

The problem is- you are offering people a "make your own '73 Chevy Nova."

New guys don't want to fight in a great helm- no matter how nice it is. They generally don't think that they are sexy, they don't breathe well, etc AND everyone talks badly about them.

Add to that lack of confidence in making your own gear, and you are up against a mighty high wall.

It is a good idea, just the wrong piece of gear.

Alaric

[ArtemisGreen]

BOOOOO!

I'd much rather have a great helm than a bascinet, even if it means more work. If I were in those shoes, I know I wouldn't want to look like everyone else on the field and wear carpet armour and bascinets.

[James of York]

Hey Artemis, I don't wear carpet armour We are just offering some constructive criticism.
Having access to a plasma cutting machine is like sitting on a gold mine...

In all seriousness though, great helms are for a certain personna in a particular time period, I would consider expanding the product line to incorporate items that everyone will need at one time or another no matter who they are portraying ie. gauntlet kits, different style spaulder kits, lamillar, CoP kits, the list can be endless, let your creativity guide you...
Don't give it up yet Hal, the party's just starting...

[Halberds]

Ok, I hate being a quitter. I had to finish this project anyway, for my own personal satisfaction. Sink or swim it is finished.

I was confident enough in my pattern files today, that I had 3 in 14ga. and 3 in 16ga. cut.

Man that CNC plasma machine is smooth....

The spaulders and such seems like a good idea too.

Artemis, the kit in 16ga. will be shipped out to you Monday.
Arty is to be my newbie beta tester.

Hal

Thank you for your comments and support.

[Alcyoneus]

If you go to Bellatrix's webpage, he advocates wiggling your greathelm at your opponent, just as some advocate 'sugar footing', to convince your opponent to concentrate on one target. Then, since you know what they are going to do...

[Halberds]

... Alcy... **I wiggle my helm at you** LOL...

I am going to redo my buisness plan to find a way to cut the price down.

When I first saw the numbers I said SHIT! who would give that much just to pound their ass off!

Some days it would pay, just to stay in bed....


Hal

[Sean Powell]

Hal,
I'm a little confused by your numbers and how you expressed them.

What is the base cost and sale price of the starting tool set?
What is the base price and desired sale price of just the helm pieces (un-dished crown)
If you sell the crown pre-dished how does that affect the cost and the price.
Have you looked into bulk ordering of the cut plates rather than the price for the 1 set you are using to check the prototype?

Still curious,
Sean

[ArtemisGreen]

Is the top pre-dished, or can I do that too? I'd really like to, unless it's some un-godly thickness like 10~12ga.

James- I'm not saying you wear carpet armour! It's just the stereotypical SCA newbie that wears that stuff. I'd rather see one in a greathelm and carpet, than a bascinet and carpet. Just my preference though....

~Arty

[James of York]

Artemas, You are too funny!!! I think a bascinet would look worse with the carpet armour.

Good luck when you get your new helm. It is pretty rewarding when you wear something you made yourself...

[Ron]

I'm presently between jobs, so I can't buy a kit now, but I think your price is very reasonable. I've made maille and a couple of minor pieces of plate, but I'd gladly pay for such a kit to get me started on a significant plate project -- and it doesn't even go with my 17th century Polish kit.

I've always thought kits are a great idea. They give people interested in something (furniture, armour, whatever) the ability to build it boosting both their confidence and abilities. It is an issue of getting up the learning curve.

[Ringlancer]

I'm interested in a kit.

[Halberds]

Thank you Ringlancer Sir.

I have cut out three in 14ga. and two in 16ga.

I have two steel mushroom stakes standing by.
(as seen in the spangen tool kit thread)

I need to secure some more 10ga. tops.

I do not do the welding or cutting, that is done by a professional shop.

The best sale introduction price I can offer is $80.00 USD....

This will include a plasma machine cut flat steel pattern of a great helm, rivets and a mushroom stake to shape the details it over.

I am still working on the instructions...

Hal

Ps: Ask Arty the newbie, how his prototype is coming along.

[Ringlancer]

Thanks Hal!

I'm interested in one in 14g.

[Ambrogio]

Hal, I think you're doing the right thing. A Bascinet is not an option, since people would have to do alot of welding since it would include a bargrill.
But what would one helmet cost if you ordered 100 from the plasma guys? do they cut them one by one or could you stack them in a pile as you do with water cutting? Do you actually need the stake to build the helmet? Can you do with a piece of railroad track?

[ArtemisGreen]

Arty the newbie....
That one's going to stick around for a while.

I haven't gotten it yet, but Fedex says it's coming tomorrow. I'm all pumped, primed and ready for it!!! Looks like Christmas comes yet again at the Green household

Ambrogio- It's best if you use the stake. I made one from a trailer hitch so Hal wouldn't have to send one in the kit. Tried to do my part to cut costs wherever possible. Just go to a junkyard (or if you don't really have scruples, get one off someone's bumper) and either grind the flat top down until it's a ball, or try to find one that's already round. It's going to be necessary to shape the back and top plates. (yes Hal, I've been studying the pics and how-to's )

[Halberds]

Ambrogio,

Yes the mushroom is required to get that just right fit of the top pieces to the pre formed top. The radius will then match. It is also used to blend the two back pieces together.

A weighted rawhide hammer is useful also, because it does not mar the steel.

No the plasma makes too much slag when cutting more than one piece. These pieces are very neat, much better than I can do on my Beverly. Also they are precision.
I did not ask about 100 pieces. I am not ready to go that far out on a limb for this project.

Ringlancer,

Thank you for your interest, you are first on the list. I would like to wait until Arty assembles his helm, to check if a newbie can do it, and also do the final test on the pattern.

Meanwhile here is a pic to look at:



The black one was won at auction and will ship soon. The black and white one is my 3rd. prototype. Arty, "The Newbie" will be putting together the 4th. prototype and doing a photo how to.

Thank you for your support.

Hal

Ok one more pic:
http://home.armourarchive.org/members/h ... dwhite.jpg

[Torfinn]

I think it is a cool Idea. However it is true that most new fighters, and new wannabe armourers will want something other than a barrel helm. A conical or a spangen helm would be a good second helm offering.

Torfinn