The Armour Archive

Hi all,
I am about to make an open-faced helmet, similar to an archer's sallet or celata.
Rather than weld this helmet and deal with cleaning the weld, I was thinking about using a spangen down the ridge instead.

Has anyone tried this method for a rounded helm of this type? Anything I should be aware of?
Thanks,
Idëval

------------------
Idëval
The Huntsman of
I-Nossë Lúmëvanwa
My mind opens wide when I roar

Are you talking about just riveting a strip of steel to connect the two halves? I've done that on about a dozen helmet tops and I like the effect.

http://www.geocities.com/darkmoorarmoury/assorted.html

Scroll about halfway down the page to check out the helmet top I made a while back. I've also started making spangenhelms out of welded helm tops for more strength

Make sure the halves are lined up as perfectly as you can. Grinding, hammering, and bending them into place is usually needed to get them to fit right. Then make your measurement from the front to back and add about .5". This is my "comfort zone" because I don't want to make my band in the middle too short. Besides, I can just cut or grind off the half inch when I'm done. Also make sure to dish the band that connects the two halves so it fits better.

After I dish the band and line up the halves so they fit right, I arrange the pieces so that the band fits over the halves. The halves have a tendency to want to slide around occasionally, so remember - Vice Grips are your friend I start from either the front or the back (wherever I have the band vice gripped to the helmet halves) and I drill my first set of holes and set both of those rivets. Then I bouge it a little bit and then go drill the next set of holes, set the rivets, and the bouge some more. I continue all the way to the front of the helmet and voila! Ridge helmet top.

Good luck. Of course, if I didn't answer your question and you're still clueless, then I apologize

------------------
When I was young I used to pray for a bike, then I realized that God doesn't work that way, so I stole a bike and prayed for forgiveness.
Salinas Swordsman
Darkmoor Armoury
Western Hammer-In, September 22-23, 2001 - Salinas, California

[This message has been edited by Prince Of Darkmoor (edited 07-31-2001).]

Thanks for responding so quickly, Clay! I appreciate it! By the way, what prompted the return to thine olde title? Computer related?

The picture you provide is exactly what I meant. After lightly dishing the ridge band, would you suggest maybe a subtle crease or center-flute?

Also, I printed Cadwallon's bascinet pattern and Sinric's bascinet pattern to use as a guide. Have you used these patterns, or do you make your own patterns for the helm halves? I am curious because I need to modify the patterns...can't have them looking TOO historical, this is the Middle Earth after all

Stop in periodically, I'll use this thread for updates and questions...as "problems" or unlooked for joys arise.

------------------
Idëval
The Huntsman of
I-Nossë Lúmëvanwa
My mind opens wide when I roar

This is a real scary moment, For the last couple of days I've been working on a pattern for just this thing. I started by working on the spangen pattern in "The Known World Handbook" And gradually came up with a cross between a spangen top with sallet skirting and hinged bevor. I suck at welding so I'm trying to get around it.

Not only do I suck at welding, but I'm out of oxygen

Also, my planishing isn't tip-top, and it won't do to have a cleanly ground, polished, and creased weld line when the rest of the helmet is going to be russeted.

The pro who does all of my other welding is busy with work for the next few weeks.

Willing Pell, does your pattern look somewhat like a distorted "almond"? That is what I've come up with, but I've not tried shaping it yet.

Id.

Ideval, the pattern I used for that one was just the Armet pattern in the Pattern Archive with some modifications. I increased the side by 5% (which kinda screwed up the dimensions of the pattern, making it a bit too round, I think) and ground some of the excess away.

Yes, putting a crease down the middle of the band would look cool, but to a point. It depends on what you want to achieve. Middle Earth play sounds like it warrants a crease - a big one

------------------
When I was young I used to pray for a bike, then I realized that God doesn't work that way, so I stole a bike and prayed for forgiveness.
Salinas Swordsman
Darkmoor Armoury
Western Hammer-In, September 22-23, 2001 - Salinas, California

A word of warning here Ideval, I'm a total sallet nut, but I've never seen a historical sallet made that way.
It's up to you, but I'd probably take my helm halves to a welder and pay them to do it. (I know a welder, so I'm lucky in that respect)

Thanks for the reply and the advise, Reinhard, but in my second post I mentioned that this is not an historical helmet...it is for Middle Earth re-enactment.

I could get out of the house before 11:00 if I really wanted it welded.
Thanks,
Idëval

No worries!

What part of MERP would a sallet come from? I always thought JRR was basing it all on Saxonish stuff, so spangs and maille would be the way to go.
Wow, you could make aluminium maille, and call it Mithril! (Mind races)
Funnily enough, we were fixing a broken elbow cop for me yesterday, and I decided that I am a little known relative of Aragorn. "The bearer of the elbow cop that shall be reforged." When it is done, I shall inherit my birthright as deputy post master of Minas Tirith.
We definitely need a way of clearing the welding fumes out of the armoury!

A late period Roman calvary helmet had much the same construction as an open faced spangen sallet. For my personal helm I was thinking of a more rounded dome made up of bands that are curved so that the portion of the panels that show are more oval in appearance than triangular. That way it would look more decorative as opposed to a spangen with a skirt riveted on.

http://members.aol.com/gijchar/aame.htm

Middle Earth was supposed to be the early version of our own history. The landmasses and cultures can be traced to real cultures and places. The weapons and armour would have been more along the lines of those found in the dark ages. Spangens are just fine, but why a sallet?

Thanks Vladimir!
The simple Noldorin helm half-way down the essay is my design, which Joe graciously crafted for me. It is also the helmet I just built a suspension liner for.

When I typed "sallet" or celata, I did not mean those helms in particular. I was describing the way the helmet should deeply encompass my head but still have an open face.

Also, Vladimir, as you may know, the First Age through the Third was a time of upheaval and war in Middle Earth. Many kingdoms rose and fell, the Eldar came and went, and the Dwarrows labored undeterred in the hearts of the mountains. Many variations are available for the mind to explore, with discretion and orbit around, as you say, dark ages type armour.

The armour that I build is meant to reflect styles worn by Men, but specifically Elf-friendly Men during the First and Second Age. By adding the friendship of Elves and Dwarves, more adventurous styles become possible...see, for instance, Tolkien's own Númenórean helmet, the "karma," on the cover of Unfinished Tales.

I am a Middle Earth purest. Unless I can find real Mithril silver to weave, I will just admit that my maille is annealed steel wire.

I am currently also conceiving of a spare and clean rondel elbow harness.



------------------
Idëval
The Huntsman of
I-Nossë Lúmëvanwa
My mind opens wide when I roar

True, I was limiting myself to only a few cultures towards the end of the third age.

It would look cool if you put a flute down the center of the rivited plate...give it a more sallet look

Well, my hands are trembling from dishing for the last forty five minutes or so, and cutting and filing before that.

I bought some 16g this morning, made my final pattern, cut a helm half, filed, and then set to dishing and sinking the piece.

I found that I needed to trim the peak and the back "tail" of the helm. Having done this, and modified the pattern, it looks as though the pieces will work.

My sister, too, is in favor of a riveted band down the ridge. She likes the look of the dome rivets in excess, and the cuirass I just finished is riveted to match - this helm to go with it. If I rivet, I can finish sooner; but maybe at the cost of aesthetics.

Prince of Darkmoor, for a completely round helm-top, should the halves be round on the top?

Idëval

Ah, someone typed out my entire username. I shall revel in this glory, for I doubt it will happen again

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">should the halves be round on the top? </font>

It doesn't matter. If it does matter, its been too miniscule for a novice like me to notice. I have always just dished the entire thing except for the bottom edge of the halves where the skirting will be attached. Hope that helps at all.

------------------
When I was young I used to pray for a bike, then I realized that God doesn't work that way, so I stole a bike and prayed for forgiveness.
Salinas Swordsman
Darkmoor Armoury
Western Hammer-In, September 22-23, 2001 - Salinas, California

Work has commenced for the day.

When I have the ridge band ready for riveting, should I rivet one half of the helm completely? Then rivet the other half?

This will make the first half easier, as I have no anvil horn or long rivet set tool.
What problems arise from this method?

Idëval