The Armour Archive

Any good pics floating about of period or recreated lentner/jupons? =)

I don't know about GOOD pics, but Janos/Joe Skeesick hosted some photos of me wearing one I just got from a seamstress in Poland... I'm investigating price if you're interested in getting your folks supplied...

It's very definitely a fabric under-defense, though, and not a plate arming coat... no points, and cut to be worn under/over mail.

Thats what im looking for is the over armour coat =) and hi russ =) Surgery went well andmy shoudler is mending soo soon I can play again =)

Sweet. YOu know, you never HAVE actually come by our neck of the woods... come on by, and we'll let you see it. Otherwise, maybe next week we can swing through (am slightly under the weather, and preparing for a glove test this Saturday).

Here is a pic of a 15th century arming doublet I did:

http://www.edricsrose.com/unusedpics/do ... cn0311.jpg

And an over armour jupon:

http://www.edricsrose.com/unusedpics/ivargamb.JPG

Here are a couple of shots:
On the left is my gambeson or lentner made of linen.
[img]http://www.globaleffects.com/tempimages/14thcArmour.jpg[/img]

In the center is Sir Ryes in his new lentner.
[img]http://www.globaleffects.com/tempimages/hugh.jpg[/img]

I think it may have been on the earlier forum's thread (I'll check), but mine is closer in basic form to the first of yours, Edric, with the same collar and basic line (but more room, and the sleeves laced rather than buttoned, to accept karvas, or to open up in warm weather).

Let me go see if I can find it...

EDIT: Found it. Awesome, I love this new forum...

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=27173&highlight=gambeson+pics

Obviously, as the hat suggests, I'm still in East-Central and Eastern Europe ... Burgundian aesthetic this ain't, though I don't have my sword belt or archery belt on. If you look at picture 4, and my left wrist, you'll see a piece of fabric hanging down... that's the sloppy version of my not securing the ties, which are laced with the same fabric as the inner liner. I could wear this over a mail shirt with no trouble at all.

Hmm. I don't know if there is some bastardised English version of the term lentner, but it comes from the German and means the same as a jupon, as Earl Duncan indicates in his first post.

So, looking at the pic above of the three well dressed chaps, we have them wearing a surcoat, coat armour and coat of plates.
The jupon/lentner was a sleeveless, tight fitting garment usually made of leather. It was generally laced closed and worn over a CoP or breast and fauld.

Erik

Here are a few pictures of Sir Nigel's Jupon

http://www.tworavens.org/gallery/2004Sn ... asWatNigel
http://www.tworavens.org/gallery/2004Sn ... PasdeArmes
http://www.tworavens.org/gallery/2004Sn ... randtNigel
http://www.tworavens.org/gallery/2004Sn ... earsFealty

cheers
Adrielle

Erik Schmidt wrote:The jupon/lentner was a sleeveless, tight fitting garment usually made of leather. It was generally laced closed and worn over a CoP or breast and fauld.

Source, please.

Thanks gents. I needed a visual refereance for Lorissa to sew me up some nice new duds

Hey Russ,
I'm not sure which part of my statement you would like validated the most.

The fact that the Jupon is a tight fitting garment is clearly shown in Edge and Paddock and they also make a clear disinction between the jupon and the surcoat.
The distinction betweent he jupon and coat armour is treated similarly by Edge and Paddock and C. Blair, although in the opposite direction. Edge and Paddock consider the coat amour a subtype of the jupon, whereas Blair mentions the jupon as a subtype of the coat armour. But both do make a destinction even though they do not take it to the point of seperating them into two destinct types.

Once you seperate the jupon from the surcoat and the coat armour, it's generally sleeveless nature can be seen in the art of the period. Some have very short sleeves.

The material from which it is made is stated regularly in the German literature as being leather, although we know quilted cloth examples can be found. But this is where the coat armour distinguishes itself from the jupon. It is often seen as a puffier, loser garment, quilted and with long sleeves.
One thing to note is that lacing is used where the material seems to be heavier(possibly leather) and buttons where cloth, quilted or not, seems to be used.
Coat armours are usually buttoned, often at the front, and jupons laced, usually at the side.

A good reference to look at in the German literature is Alexander von Reitzenstein's "Der Ritter im Heergewäte" who clearly defines the Waffenrock(surcoat) as a loose, flowing cloth garment as destinct from the Lentner(jupon) a tight fitting, firm but flexible, leather covering.
I haven't had the time to go over other German sources again, but I know the older sources regularly use various terms, but some already use the term Lenter(Lendner) as it was applied by Reitzenstein.
A good source that I as yet haven't sat down to read thoroughly is;
Ortwin Gamber: Harnischstudien. V. Stilgeschichte des Plattenharnisches von den Anfängen bis um 1440. «Jb.khS.Wien» 50 (1953) 53-92.

These terms are ofcourse not clearcut as reality rarely has clear boundaries, but to ignore the destinctions being made by scholars, especially modern scholars, when referring to these garments just leads to confusion.
I'm still in the process of getting a grip on how the terminology developed in the German language and their relationship to the terms being used in English.

Erik

I see. That classification of "jupon" would take into account several critters I wouldn't have normally considered such, and absorb some stuff I'd have thought of as "coat armor." Whereas I knew that the Jupon was a specific garment, I was not aware that it did not include the earlier, more loosely-fitted style.

My German is wretched (it's one of my needed project), so I appreciate the heads-up. My problem with much of the English-language analyses is that they take a few period examples, and then give them a terminological name, which then must be back-applied to the practice of the entire freaking region over time... last year at Kalamazoo, I sat through a discussion with one of the (I think) LaBelle scholars discussing no fewer than a dozen serious scholarly disagreements as to what exactly a gambeson, for example, entailed... and I think the tendency to make discrete, rather than general, terms, is at the heart of this.

Please don't take me wrong: although it's not even close to my primary scholarly work, I am seriously interested in the issue -- should you ever scribble anything up, I'd like to read it.

Russ Mitchell wrote:I see. That classification of "jupon" would take into account several critters I wouldn't have normally considered such, and absorb some stuff I'd have thought of as "coat armor."

Really? Interesting. So you see the classification I gave as being more broard than your previous reading of the subject. I would certainly like you to elaborate.
Don't forget, this deals with 14th century garments and does not necessarily apply much earlier or later. Also, it deals with outer garments, not those for wearing under the armour such as an arming coat.

I do hope to do some scribbling. My research is aimed at producing a book on 14th century Germanic armour aimed largely at reenactors. It's high time the German scholarly work reached the English language, illustrated to the teeth naturally.

Erik

Actually, I think you have it right, and it may simply be a case of my confusing lentner as synonymous with "coat armour."

Am VERY glad to hear you're thinking of doing some writing on this.. please do!