Long ago I promised color pics of this project but didn't manage to get them until now. These were made in support of article and lecture that Chris Dobson made for last years conference on the topic of period leather hardening techiques. I'm in the process of updating the site with these pics and further information of last years conference. I thought I should go ahead and post the pics here first since I'm several months late in getting them here already.
The coloring on these things really make me think about what the fiield must of really looked like, as opposed to the visions of muted colors and bare metal we are typically presented.
Anyway, hope you enjoy em....
[img]http://www.international-arms-and-armour-conferences.com/images/Vambrace.jpg[/img]
J
Reconstruction of late 13th cent. hardened leather vambrace
-
Joe Skeesick
- Archive Member
- Posts: 1591
- Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Suffolk, UK
Reconstruction of late 13th cent. hardened leather vambrace
<a href="http://www.international-arms-and-armour-conferences.com"><img src="http://www.international-arms-and-armou ... r.gif"></a>
! some ideas for my Pas kit (using the bees instead of the flowers.
-
Bertus Brokamp
- Archive Member
- Posts: 515
- Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2002 2:01 am
- Location: Alphen aan den Rijn, the Netherlands
Those just look stunning!
Would you happen to know how I could come by this article and what it's title etc. is?
Never mind! I think I've found it:
"As Tough as Old Boots? A Study of Hardened Leather Armour. Part One: Techniques of Manufacture"
in
Dobson, Christopher (2003), Art and Arms: Florence, City of the Medici. ISBN 0-9541633-1-1
http://www.masterarmourer.com/publications.htm
These were made in support of article and lecture that Chris Dobson made for last years conference on the topic of period leather hardening techiques.
Would you happen to know how I could come by this article and what it's title etc. is?
Never mind! I think I've found it:
"As Tough as Old Boots? A Study of Hardened Leather Armour. Part One: Techniques of Manufacture"
in
Dobson, Christopher (2003), Art and Arms: Florence, City of the Medici. ISBN 0-9541633-1-1
http://www.masterarmourer.com/publications.htm
Bertus Brokamp
-
Joe Skeesick
- Archive Member
- Posts: 1591
- Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Suffolk, UK
That's it Bertus. That is last year's conference publication. You can get it there or over at the conference site here...
http://www.international-arms-and-armou ... tions.html
Steve, I think I've got a couple more pics. I'll put them up later today.
Joe
http://www.international-arms-and-armou ... tions.html
Steve, I think I've got a couple more pics. I'll put them up later today.
Joe
<a href="http://www.international-arms-and-armour-conferences.com"><img src="http://www.international-arms-and-armou ... r.gif"></a>
-
Vitus von Atzinger
- Archive Member
- Posts: 14040
- Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Louisville, Ky. USA
* WARNING ARMOUR PORN*
One way would be to make the forearm piece using a bazuband pattern which would give you required elbow protection. The difference wouldn't be readily visible and for SCA purposes would work quite well.
VERY VERY PRETTY !!!
jamesn_13 wrote:WOW!!! How did you do that? Could it be adapted for sca combat?
One way would be to make the forearm piece using a bazuband pattern which would give you required elbow protection. The difference wouldn't be readily visible and for SCA purposes would work quite well.
VERY VERY PRETTY !!!
-
Joe Skeesick
- Archive Member
- Posts: 1591
- Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Suffolk, UK
Glad you folks like … I’m moving slow these last few days as I’ve come down with a bit of a bug. I did get two more pics up but the site has yet to be updated. (I’ll not say when it will be to keep from being wrong again though).
James – This arm would have problems for SCA use as it doesn’t cover the elbow. Cailean suggested that a bazuband style lower canon which is a fine suggestion depending on your priorities. I’d suggest a hidden metal elbow cop and then you can make the arm with the right shape. These arms were meant as a recreation based on a late 13th cent English vambrace held by the British museum. If you were after something like that then you’d need to hide the elbow protection.
Vitus – I was hoping you’d see this post. It was to you I’d promised color pics of this so many months ago. Sorry these don’t have a lot more detail on them. I will say that both these pieces were subsequently lined with a soft buff leather and the strapping is done with a “Yâ€Â
James – This arm would have problems for SCA use as it doesn’t cover the elbow. Cailean suggested that a bazuband style lower canon which is a fine suggestion depending on your priorities. I’d suggest a hidden metal elbow cop and then you can make the arm with the right shape. These arms were meant as a recreation based on a late 13th cent English vambrace held by the British museum. If you were after something like that then you’d need to hide the elbow protection.
Vitus – I was hoping you’d see this post. It was to you I’d promised color pics of this so many months ago. Sorry these don’t have a lot more detail on them. I will say that both these pieces were subsequently lined with a soft buff leather and the strapping is done with a “Yâ€Â
<a href="http://www.international-arms-and-armour-conferences.com"><img src="http://www.international-arms-and-armou ... r.gif"></a>
You beat me to it Steve, I was going to ask for inside pics as well.
Another way you COULD do it for SCA legal if you really wanted was to point it to a shirt of maille. It sticks in my head that where I've seen illustrations of something similar to this they were worn over maille. Then you COULD use a hidden elbow cop of your choice of materials underneath the maille sleeve. Of course that could get bulky as all heck but it could be done that way. A metal elbow hidden underneath would work as well. I suggested mating the bazuband elbow to the lower cannon of this design because it would reduce the number of pieces, but as far as I can see either would work. And that is one of the prettiest pieces of armour I've seen in a long time. I've been doing sketches today of how to do this with my kit and wondering how it would end up looking. I'll post sketches when I get them done probably tonight or tomorrow.
Another way you COULD do it for SCA legal if you really wanted was to point it to a shirt of maille. It sticks in my head that where I've seen illustrations of something similar to this they were worn over maille. Then you COULD use a hidden elbow cop of your choice of materials underneath the maille sleeve. Of course that could get bulky as all heck but it could be done that way. A metal elbow hidden underneath would work as well. I suggested mating the bazuband elbow to the lower cannon of this design because it would reduce the number of pieces, but as far as I can see either would work. And that is one of the prettiest pieces of armour I've seen in a long time. I've been doing sketches today of how to do this with my kit and wondering how it would end up looking. I'll post sketches when I get them done probably tonight or tomorrow.
-
Konstantin the Red
- Archive Member
- Posts: 26725
- Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 1:01 am
- Location: Port Hueneme CA USA
-
Dunkeljorm
- New Member
- Posts: 35
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 2:01 am
- Location: Mola di Bari (BA) ITALY
*WORDLESS* Really wonderful!!!!:shock:
-
Russ Mitchell
- Archive Member
- Posts: 11800
- Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: HQ, Garden Gnome Liberation Front
- Contact:
Nice work, Joe: is this yours or Chris'? I know you did one recently, but time gets muddy in my head this year.
Have you ever beaten the hell out of one of these, just to see how well the paint holds up? I doubt you'd trash one of the finished pieces, but I am fairly curious -- with the widespread use of leather armors in my context, some of them very obviously also painted and gilded, I'm rather curious.
Also, do you think any of these ever had bits of crystal embedded in them the way they did shields and helmets in the late 13th?
Have you ever beaten the hell out of one of these, just to see how well the paint holds up? I doubt you'd trash one of the finished pieces, but I am fairly curious -- with the widespread use of leather armors in my context, some of them very obviously also painted and gilded, I'm rather curious.
Also, do you think any of these ever had bits of crystal embedded in them the way they did shields and helmets in the late 13th?
-
Joe Skeesick
- Archive Member
- Posts: 1591
- Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Suffolk, UK
I don't have any inside pics, though as stated the inside is lined with a soft buff leather. Because the pieces don't articulate there isn't much to learn from the inside pics other than seeing how the strapping is arranged. If I get a chance I'll try and grab some pics for you but it might be a bit before I can.
As for the process, it's a bit involved but in general it goes like this. The leather is cut to size (with a good 1/2" extra border that will later be cut off) then soaked overnight in water then tooled. Once tooling is complete the item is nailed to a wooden former or last. In the case of these arms they were single thickness, however we have also done laminated versions that would have a second layer of leather (cut to the same shape) laid behind the tooled layer with a copious amount of hot rabbit glue, then nailed to the last. Either way the leather on the last would then be brushed liberally with rabbit glue then set in front of a heat source. We used a paraffin space heater but have also used other heat sources. I'm sure you could use an oven as well, it's just nice to have the piece where you can constantly monitor it and turn the parts you want towards the heat when you want. The leather was regularly given further glazes of rabbit glue as it soaked into the leather. We knew when the right temp was reached after we had consistent leaking of the rabbit glue all around the item.
The items were then left on the last for about a week to fully cure/dry and then were removed. Because of them being nailed to the last and the way the glue was used to impregnate the open structure of the leather shrinking is controlled. The outside 1/2" (full of nail holes) is cut off and the item is finished with several layers of gesso, both inside, which keeps the gesso from drying on one side and pulling the leather out of shape. After that the areas to be gilded are give a couple coats of bole then the thing is painted and gilded.
There really isn't anyway for me to go into the whole process here, however. I'd highly recommend getting the conference publication for this (as well as several other) article(s).
http://www.international-arms-and-armou ... tions.html
As for patterns, I don’t have them. But I don’t see it taking more than 20 minutes to make your own based on these shapes that would then be customized to your own arm. They are very simple forms. The last are the tricky bits.
Russ, This one is Chris’ work. Mine has, foolishly, rather more complex tooling and is therefore not yet complete. J We have yet to do destructive testing on these other than some off the cuff testing of some test pieces we had around the shop. There are plans to do some full scale destructive testing, but with the move to Florence looming heavily on the horizon I doubt it will come any time soon. I might have a piece or two I could send you and let you see for yourself. We also did a test run with linen, postulating on the makeup of the linothorax … it proved to be VERY hard and very protective. It is a shame we don’t have time to explore the idea further. We’ve just too much on our plates right now.
As for decoration I just can’t say. Off the top of my head I can’t think of any such decoration but that’s hardly a basis for any definitive statement. I will keep an eye out for instances of that, but I think what you might do is keep an eye on later Western European horse armours. Hardened leather was used extensively in horse armours, particularly the cruppers (large plate on the horses rear) for many centuries after it had fallen out of favor for their owners. There are examples of extensive decorative works on horse armours and it’s almost certain that some of them are at least part leather. Determining which are metal and which are leather from iconographic evidence might be a trick but there may well be some information there for you to mine. Again, I’ll keep an eye out.
J
As for the process, it's a bit involved but in general it goes like this. The leather is cut to size (with a good 1/2" extra border that will later be cut off) then soaked overnight in water then tooled. Once tooling is complete the item is nailed to a wooden former or last. In the case of these arms they were single thickness, however we have also done laminated versions that would have a second layer of leather (cut to the same shape) laid behind the tooled layer with a copious amount of hot rabbit glue, then nailed to the last. Either way the leather on the last would then be brushed liberally with rabbit glue then set in front of a heat source. We used a paraffin space heater but have also used other heat sources. I'm sure you could use an oven as well, it's just nice to have the piece where you can constantly monitor it and turn the parts you want towards the heat when you want. The leather was regularly given further glazes of rabbit glue as it soaked into the leather. We knew when the right temp was reached after we had consistent leaking of the rabbit glue all around the item.
The items were then left on the last for about a week to fully cure/dry and then were removed. Because of them being nailed to the last and the way the glue was used to impregnate the open structure of the leather shrinking is controlled. The outside 1/2" (full of nail holes) is cut off and the item is finished with several layers of gesso, both inside, which keeps the gesso from drying on one side and pulling the leather out of shape. After that the areas to be gilded are give a couple coats of bole then the thing is painted and gilded.
There really isn't anyway for me to go into the whole process here, however. I'd highly recommend getting the conference publication for this (as well as several other) article(s).
http://www.international-arms-and-armou ... tions.html
As for patterns, I don’t have them. But I don’t see it taking more than 20 minutes to make your own based on these shapes that would then be customized to your own arm. They are very simple forms. The last are the tricky bits.
Russ, This one is Chris’ work. Mine has, foolishly, rather more complex tooling and is therefore not yet complete. J We have yet to do destructive testing on these other than some off the cuff testing of some test pieces we had around the shop. There are plans to do some full scale destructive testing, but with the move to Florence looming heavily on the horizon I doubt it will come any time soon. I might have a piece or two I could send you and let you see for yourself. We also did a test run with linen, postulating on the makeup of the linothorax … it proved to be VERY hard and very protective. It is a shame we don’t have time to explore the idea further. We’ve just too much on our plates right now.
As for decoration I just can’t say. Off the top of my head I can’t think of any such decoration but that’s hardly a basis for any definitive statement. I will keep an eye out for instances of that, but I think what you might do is keep an eye on later Western European horse armours. Hardened leather was used extensively in horse armours, particularly the cruppers (large plate on the horses rear) for many centuries after it had fallen out of favor for their owners. There are examples of extensive decorative works on horse armours and it’s almost certain that some of them are at least part leather. Determining which are metal and which are leather from iconographic evidence might be a trick but there may well be some information there for you to mine. Again, I’ll keep an eye out.
J
<a href="http://www.international-arms-and-armour-conferences.com"><img src="http://www.international-arms-and-armou ... r.gif"></a>
-
Guillaume2
- Archive Member
- Posts: 969
- Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2001 1:01 am
- Location: Quebec (Canada)
- Contact:
-
Russ Mitchell
- Archive Member
- Posts: 11800
- Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: HQ, Garden Gnome Liberation Front
- Contact:
Thanks, Joe, obviously the answer is "yes I'd be thrilled."
The work on the house is still going full-out, but I hope to have a chance to take me wee dremel and get the lasts in shape once the garage is no longer infested with construction materials and somebody else's power tools. I owe the tax man money on my mother's estate, but what might be the best solution would be for yours truly go scrape up some funds and come visit the two of you with some of my completed items and do a show-and-tell or participate in one of the workshops. (I guess my chances will be higher if I point Anna to this thread...
)
Glad to hear the linothorax idea worked: folks think I'm out of my mind when I describe the same thing in paper, but there's definitely something going on there... Once the Leckuchner interpretation is done and Kalamazoo is out of the way, the shop is definitely getting opened up.
The work on the house is still going full-out, but I hope to have a chance to take me wee dremel and get the lasts in shape once the garage is no longer infested with construction materials and somebody else's power tools. I owe the tax man money on my mother's estate, but what might be the best solution would be for yours truly go scrape up some funds and come visit the two of you with some of my completed items and do a show-and-tell or participate in one of the workshops. (I guess my chances will be higher if I point Anna to this thread...
)
Glad to hear the linothorax idea worked: folks think I'm out of my mind when I describe the same thing in paper, but there's definitely something going on there... Once the Leckuchner interpretation is done and Kalamazoo is out of the way, the shop is definitely getting opened up.
-
Maelgwyn
- Archive Member
- Posts: 2397
- Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2003 1:01 am
- Location: Texas (Bryn Gwlad, Ansteorra)
- Contact:
How does one make/buy/conjure up hot rabbit glue? Do you make it by boiling down rabbits that are in heat? 
Will commercial hide glues work as well?
I've looked into getting the article through ILL but no libraries have cataloged the proceedings yet, or at least they have not reported it to OCLC WorldCat if they have done so.
Will commercial hide glues work as well?
I've looked into getting the article through ILL but no libraries have cataloged the proceedings yet, or at least they have not reported it to OCLC WorldCat if they have done so.
-
Joe Skeesick
- Archive Member
- Posts: 1591
- Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Suffolk, UK
Guillaume there are a significant number of references to this sort of limb armour used in the 13th cent... not the least of which was the extant vambrace these items were patterened directly from. Now wether the templars themselves used this sort of thing, I don't have any information on...
Raymund, yes it is answered in the publication but in short it was determined from examination of the BM vambrace as well as a later archers bracer and a cruper at Leeds. Things such as the surface being gessoed and gilt ruled out any sort of wax hardening since gesso will not stick to wax. X-rays of the Leeds cruper showing a series of filled holes that were used to attach the cruper to the last for forming. Of course the article covers it much more fully that I am doing...
Russ - NP, I'll see what I've got round the shop... You know you (and your lovely wife for tha tmatter) are always welcome.
Maelgwyn - rabbit glue is the best but other animal hide glues would work as well. You can find rabbit glue online or at art and wood working supply houses.
J
Raymund, yes it is answered in the publication but in short it was determined from examination of the BM vambrace as well as a later archers bracer and a cruper at Leeds. Things such as the surface being gessoed and gilt ruled out any sort of wax hardening since gesso will not stick to wax. X-rays of the Leeds cruper showing a series of filled holes that were used to attach the cruper to the last for forming. Of course the article covers it much more fully that I am doing...
Russ - NP, I'll see what I've got round the shop... You know you (and your lovely wife for tha tmatter) are always welcome.
Maelgwyn - rabbit glue is the best but other animal hide glues would work as well. You can find rabbit glue online or at art and wood working supply houses.
J
<a href="http://www.international-arms-and-armour-conferences.com"><img src="http://www.international-arms-and-armou ... r.gif"></a>
-
Dunkeljorm
- New Member
- Posts: 35
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 2:01 am
- Location: Mola di Bari (BA) ITALY
-
Guillaume2
- Archive Member
- Posts: 969
- Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2001 1:01 am
- Location: Quebec (Canada)
- Contact:
-
Bertus Brokamp
- Archive Member
- Posts: 515
- Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2002 2:01 am
- Location: Alphen aan den Rijn, the Netherlands
Guillaume there are a significant number of references to this sort of limb armour used in the 13th cent... not the least of which was the extant vambrace these items were patterened directly from.
Joe,
I was wondering why if there are so many references to this sort of limb armour used in the 13th century that none, that I know of, show up in 13th c. art. I only see this floral design hardened leather armour on effigies in the area of Naples of 2nd & 3rd quarter of 14th c. (+/-).
Bertus Brokamp
-
Bertus Brokamp
- Archive Member
- Posts: 515
- Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2002 2:01 am
- Location: Alphen aan den Rijn, the Netherlands
Ah I've found one pic of 13th c. hardened leather armour with designs etc. The wall tomb of Guillaume de Dufort (death 1289, erection tomb +/- 1291) in a church in Florence. But he only has leather leg armour.
According to the article this leather limb armour would have been the latest innovation in armour design coming from France and Guillaume being a ranking commander would have been able to afford it / come by it.
Maelgwyn said:
I can't find the book either here in the Netherlands. I am hoping that the library of the dutch Army Museum has a copy of it. They should have because one of their main curators lectured at the conference and wrote one of the articles in the book.
According to the article this leather limb armour would have been the latest innovation in armour design coming from France and Guillaume being a ranking commander would have been able to afford it / come by it.
Maelgwyn said:
I've looked into getting the article through ILL but no libraries have cataloged the proceedings yet, or at least they have not reported it to OCLC WorldCat if they have done so.
I can't find the book either here in the Netherlands. I am hoping that the library of the dutch Army Museum has a copy of it. They should have because one of their main curators lectured at the conference and wrote one of the articles in the book.
Bertus Brokamp
-
Joe Skeesick
- Archive Member
- Posts: 1591
- Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Suffolk, UK
Bretus, yes, that is one of them. Though if you look again you will see a strap on his arm as well indicating a lower vambrace. There is also "The massacre of the Innocents" in the Church of Saint Abbondio from the mid 13th, some late 13th cent frescos by Palazzo Pubblico in San Gimignano and of course the extant BM upper vambrace that is covered in vine work and fanciful beasts.
J
J
<a href="http://www.international-arms-and-armour-conferences.com"><img src="http://www.international-arms-and-armou ... r.gif"></a>
-
Steve S.
- Archive Member
- Posts: 13327
- Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Huntsville, AL
- Contact:
Does anyone have online sources for Rabbit Glue, Gesso, and Bole? What is "bole", by the way?
Also, do the vambrace and rerebrace pieces join into a complete tube around the arm when worn? If so, then you must have to flex open the pieces in order to get your arm inside them - does this cause a problem to the hardened leather? If the pieces do not close into a complete circle around the forearm/bicep, then how big a gap is there?
I have just purchased the publication with the article in it.
Steve
Also, do the vambrace and rerebrace pieces join into a complete tube around the arm when worn? If so, then you must have to flex open the pieces in order to get your arm inside them - does this cause a problem to the hardened leather? If the pieces do not close into a complete circle around the forearm/bicep, then how big a gap is there?
I have just purchased the publication with the article in it.
Steve
-
Steve S.
- Archive Member
- Posts: 13327
- Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Huntsville, AL
- Contact:
Are these suitable:
Rabbit Glue:
http://www.dickblick.com/zz089/23/produ ... ig_id=4683
Gesso:
http://www.dickblick.com/zz004/56a/prod ... ig_id=1093
How much of these items will I need to make a pair of arms, for reference? Thanks!
Steve
Rabbit Glue:
http://www.dickblick.com/zz089/23/produ ... ig_id=4683
Gesso:
http://www.dickblick.com/zz004/56a/prod ... ig_id=1093
How much of these items will I need to make a pair of arms, for reference? Thanks!
Steve
-
Vitus von Atzinger
- Archive Member
- Posts: 14040
- Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Louisville, Ky. USA