Reconstruction of late 13th cent. hardened leather vambrace

Joe Skeesick · Post by **Joe Skeesick** » Mon May 17, 2004 5:47 pm

Bole=a mixture animal glue, plaster and red clay

I'm sure those items (rabbit glue and gesso) would be fine. You can also make your own hide glue by boiling rawhide for several hours. (the smaller the pieces the shorter the boil time. If you don't have any sheet rawhide you can use rawhide chew toys. It takes several hours and I wouldn't suggest doing it inside but it is the cheep solution.

The vambrace and rerebrace cover about 2/3rds of the arm. There is some give and the items do flex open to receive the arm but the opening is wide enough that there isn't a large amount of deformation needed.

The archers vambrace I worked on several months ago was produced with basically the same technique as in the article, however I laminated the bracer by having two pieces of leather cut the same size, one was tooled the other not. I then buttered the untooled piece with animal glue, place the tooled version on top and then nailed the two pieces to the last. They were then covered liberally with animal glue and heated (using a damp cloth in the later stages to smooth any bubbling glue away from tooled areas).

I personally would suggest the laminated approach if the final goal is for these to be used in SCA combat.

J

Uilleag · Post by **Uilleag** » Mon May 17, 2004 10:13 pm

Thank you so much for giving me yet another way to play with leather armour!

I just sent off the money for the book with the article in it and will be hunting the other books referenced. I sell armour for a living, but I have been dying to make more authentic pieces that could be used in SCA combat. Water hardening/heating works ok, but the results are not consistent enough for business practices.

Waxing works great for the game we play in the SCA, but it isn't what was used in the time period we study. It is however a consistent method of hardening without losing shape/size.....

I'm really looking forward to trying this out!

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Tue May 18, 2004 12:22 am

I read in this thesis of bascinets covered in white leather.

http://medievalhistory.mysite.freeserve.com/thesis.html

I have always wondered what technique was used to decorate heaumes in the 13th century, e.g. the kneeling knight from the Westminster Bible or the examples in Ee.3.59. I had previously assumed the decoration was engraved, but now I wonder if decorated leather glued over the heaume might not have been used?

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Tue May 18, 2004 8:24 am

So how was the liner attached to the inside of the leather armour? I see you said you used buff leather, but the rerebrace at the British Museum was lined with cloth (according to Techniques of Armour Reproduction). I see no stitch lines, so I'm assuming the liner is not stitched to the leather. Glue?

Steve

Kel Rekuta · Post by **Kel Rekuta** » Tue May 18, 2004 9:55 am

Uilleag wrote:Thank you so much for giving me yet another way to play with leather armour!

I just sent off the money for the book with the article in it and will be hunting the other books referenced. I sell armour for a living, but I have been dying to make more authentic pieces that could be used in SCA combat. Water hardening/heating works ok, but the results are not consistent enough for business practices.

Waxing works great for the game we play in the SCA, but it isn't what was used in the time period we study. It is however a consistent method of hardening without losing shape/size.....

I'm really looking forward to trying this out!

Are you shaping the pieces by lasting? Or are they moulded? The drinking vessels I've made (jacks and costrells) were lasted on wood after a cold soak. A quick dip (20-30 seconds) in simmering hot water consistantly turned out items of uniform hardness and shape. I haven't had the same success with vambraces because I haven't bothered to make a proper last, just an opened PVC pipe for a mould. Soon....

I am looking forward to seeing the article everyone is discussing as I've never seen the product of hide glue sizing on leather. Fascinating stuff!

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Tue May 18, 2004 10:23 am

And I'm rather lost on this "bole" stuff, Joe... is this a Euro equivalent of what I sent you that article on, do you think? If so, you're talking about one hell of a laminating material... that's not far from what I'm going to use as a back-surface on rawhide shields this summer if I don't pick up a translation job... (still on the fence there).

Joe Skeesick · Post by **Joe Skeesick** » Tue May 18, 2004 10:45 am

Bole is used to prepare the surface for gilding. I found this page on icon painting that covers a bit on topic of bole. It basically is just creating a surface with a bit of a tooth to it that will readily accept the gilding, and is only applied to the areas that will be gilt.

http://www.ateliersaintandre.net/en/pag ... /bole.html

J

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Tue May 18, 2004 10:58 am

Cool-cool, Joe... wish I could come hang with you and James this weekend... any chance you can send back some samples with him?

:lol:

Sounds like the two are definitely different techniques. I've got to get off my arse and get my shop set up...

Joe Skeesick · Post by **Joe Skeesick** » Tue May 18, 2004 11:14 am

Got another 10 days before James gets here. Tell ya what I'll do. I try and remember to give James my archers bracer that failed (developed a crack after it was opened too wide... I was looking to see if it would fail or not). He can bring it back for you to take a look at.

J

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Tue May 18, 2004 12:08 pm

Crap that it cracked... sweet that you're willing to let me pore over it...

Hopefully I'll have something later this summer to send back to you.

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Wed May 19, 2004 10:27 am

Hey Joe:

What did you use to trim the leather to its finished size after removing it from the last?

Did you do anything to smooth up or treat the cut edges?

Steve

Ian Glenagary · Post by **Ian Glenagary** » Wed May 19, 2004 2:01 pm

Man, that has got to be among the best looking leather armor I've seen.
I have a couple of questions though, if it cracked by opening it up too much, how durable can it be for SCA style combat? And, did it break into seperate pieces or did the glue matrix fail and cause a "fold" point in
the leather?

Joe Skeesick · Post by **Joe Skeesick** » Wed May 19, 2004 2:35 pm

Steve,

Just used snips to cut the leather to size then files and sandpaper to smooth the edges. It worked quite well.

Ian,

I was working against the natural curve of the piece trying to see how much give the piece had. What I was doing was much different and more extreme (in some ways) than SCA combat would be. Also, the piece I was referring to was a different piece that the pictures shown. It was a bracer that we were experimenting with an alternate process. Also, it should be noted that although it did crack it was a crack on the internal layer that did not extend into the outer layer.

J

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Tue Jun 01, 2004 11:41 am

What means was used to attach the liner to the leather?

Steve

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Tue Jun 01, 2004 3:04 pm

#1 WOW!!!!

#2 HEY SOFC, would these be useable for Novea???? Not sue of the cut off dates.

#3 Can i get a pettern please??????!?!?!?!?!?!?!!!!

#4 Anyone think they could make me a set of these on comission?????

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Wed Jun 02, 2004 7:42 am

Hi Murdock!

Novae Militiae usually focuses on 1189-1215, and as these are listed as "Late 13th Century" harness I would think they would be too late for us.

But if enough people want to do late 13th century we can do that, too.

Steve

Maelgwyn · Post by **Maelgwyn** » Wed Jun 02, 2004 8:47 am

The techniques should apply to earlier armour but the shapes of armour pieces and particular decorative motifs may be different. I'd suggest looking for examples in artwork for your chosen period and then reproducing them using the methods described here.

PS My box of "rabbit skin glue" came in from Dick Blick online so I can start experimenting with it. First project: hardened leather mitten gauntlets for youth boffer combat. I also want to try this method for hardening and sealing leather lamellae for lamellar body armour.

PPS I still have not found a library that can ILL me the full article. Since I'm not particularly interested in 13th century armour I don't think this is a case where I want to buy the book for my library, I just want to understand the method. It is probably a big step closer to authentic 6th century methods than most modern guesswork (wax, boiling water, et cettera).

Uilleag · Post by **Uilleag** » Wed Jun 02, 2004 9:15 am

Kel Rekuta wrote:Are you shaping the pieces by lasting? Or are they moulded? The drinking vessels I've made (jacks and costrells) were lasted on wood after a cold soak. A quick dip (20-30 seconds) in simmering hot water consistantly turned out items of uniform hardness and shape. I haven't had the same success with vambraces because I haven't bothered to make a proper last, just an opened PVC pipe for a mould. Soon....

I am looking forward to seeing the article everyone is discussing as I've never seen the product of hide glue sizing on leather. Fascinating stuff!

I am shaping my pieces by hammering them in dishing bowls, a lot like a metal armourer does. I use shaped, rubber-head mallets and I line the dishing bowls with supple scrap leather to keep from damaging the leather I am working.

I case the leather in water, (length of time is dependant on thickness and how compressed the leather was during tanning), and then I dish it into the shapes I require for the piece I am making. I have found that by shaping the leather this way, it compresses the leather a little more which toughens it and it holds its shape very well.

Kel Rekuta · Post by **Kel Rekuta** » Thu Jun 03, 2004 9:47 am

Uilleag wrote:
I am shaping my pieces by hammering them in dishing bowls, a lot like a metal armourer does. I use shaped, rubber-head mallets and I line the dishing bowls with supple scrap leather to keep from damaging the leather I am working.

I case the leather in water, (length of time is dependant on thickness and how compressed the leather was during tanning), and then I dish it into the shapes I require for the piece I am making. I have found that by shaping the leather this way, it compresses the leather a little more which toughens it and it holds its shape very well.

Seems like a good method by the look of your products! Did you know that cobblers traditionally used anvil hammering to compress wet sole leather before modern tanneries started to "bar" sole bends in a steel roller process? Your method also has the advantage of reducing the risk of the leather cracking. It doesn't plasticize the collagens.

Thanks for the info!

Kel

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Thu Jun 03, 2004 12:12 pm

If your lookig to make a set, period style not sca combat style.

I'd love to be a guine pig!!

I believe there are also a set of legs in the same style?

Course i'd need another helmet to go with em

:roll:

oh darn!

Uilleag · Post by **Uilleag** » Thu Jun 03, 2004 5:46 pm

Murdock wrote:If your lookig to make a set, period style not sca combat style.

I'd love to be a guine pig!!

I believe there are also a set of legs in the same style?

Course i'd need another helmet to go with em

oh darn!

Murdock,

I am looking to make a period style of these in the near future, and yes there is an example of this style legs.

I have been tooling/working with leather for about 20 years and I've been making armour for the SCA for about 4 years.

Email me or PM me if you are seriously interested and we can talk specifics.

Edwin · Post by **Edwin** » Thu Jun 03, 2004 10:38 pm

I attempted to order of those books.. but there was a fault on the web page... wouldn't place the order.

Any alternatives to get it from?

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 11:29 am

Yesterday I received my copy of the conferences notes, with the article on the above arm harness. The article is fantastic. I can't wait to try this out myself. I'm working on my own lasts right now.

Steve

Joe Skeesick · Post by **Joe Skeesick** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 11:54 am

Glad to hear you got the book. I was a bit worried when you said you had not received it yet. I'll let Chris know it was well received both physically and in content.

Enjoy, and be sure to share your results.

J

p.s. if you have any questions along the way feel free to email me. I've done a few of them.

Joe Skeesick · Post by **Joe Skeesick** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 11:56 am

Edwin,

Sorry just saw your post. Depending on where the fault happened it could of been a paypal issue. Who knows. You can get it from the IAAConference site or from www.masterarmouer.com either one has links to purchase the books from.

J

Raymund · Post by **Raymund** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 2:25 pm

I also got my copy a couple of weeks ago and I'm also itching to try something out. Something Chris doesn't mention though, is what kind of paint and laquer he is using. Joe, do you have any details?

/R

Maelgwyn · Post by **Maelgwyn** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 4:40 pm

I have made a few pieces of hardened leather using the summary posted here and I've been quite pleased with the results. I've made a child's full gauntlet and a pair of full-sized half gauntlets using wet-forming and baking in the rabbit glue. Using roughly 8oz leather I was able to get ample rigidity for use in armoured combat under SCA rules. The finished product is very lightweight, water resistant, and not prone to softening under the Texas sun.

I have not yet tried any tooled or dyed pieces nor tried painting them.

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 10:26 am

Joe: package arrived. Awesome.

Edwin · Post by **Edwin** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 11:42 am

I managed to get the order placed. Had to lower the security settings on my browser because pay pal wouldn't do it's thing with the cookie restrictions I normally use.

That was about 3 weeks ago I think. Anyone have a good estimate on about how long it takes for order to be processed and shipping to take?

Joe Skeesick · Post by **Joe Skeesick** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:08 pm

Raymund, it's an oil paint that was used, the laquer I'm afraid I don't know. I'll try and remember to ask about that one.

Maelgwyn, glad the general process is working for you. Are you using lasts for your work? (I'm assuming you are but you didn't say)

Russ, glad it got there alright. (was a bit concerned about customs on that one) sorry it took so long to get it to you.

Edwin, sorry about the order issues. Glad to see it wasn't our site though. I'm not sure how long the shipments take. I think Steve's took about 4 weeks to get to him. Wish we could send them faster but the international shipping on the book would end up being nearly $20 if we did. What is you're mundane name? I post nearly all the book orders.

***FWI to all, on orders through paypal there (sometimes) a delay in the payment being finalized for various reasons. This delay is typically around 3 days but if that includes a weekend and or holiday it can delay the order going out nearly a week. I know this happened with at least one order here. That coupled with the slow boat shipping it can seem like a long time to get the book. I assure everyone though that the orders are put out typically the day after the payment is finalized for the order. We talk care of all administrative duties first thing, every work day, just so things don't get dropped.

J

Maelgwyn · Post by **Maelgwyn** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:36 pm

Joe Skeesick wrote:Maelgwyn, glad the general process is working for you. Are you using lasts for your work? (I'm assuming you are but you didn't say)

No, I wanted to test out the hardness of the leather before I spent time on making lasts, so my first test piece I just manipulated the wet leather with my fingers to get the right shape and then baked it at about 200 degrees, adding rabbit glue in 3 or 4 passes inside and out after it had gotten quite warm but well before it had baked dry. Even without a last there was very little shrinkage and it kept my intended shape fairly well. I tried a second piece using a heat gun and was much less satisfied with the results...I got some scorching and localized shrinkage in the leather which also became brittle. This could probably be corrected with better heat-gun technique but for now I think I'll stick with my little toaster-oven.

I liked the results so well that I took a gauntlet that was already bake-hardened and assembled, warmed it back up and started adding rabbit glue. It did not take the glue as well without the moisture to carry the glue and heat into the middle of the leather, but it did stiffen up some and get a nice glossy surface which seems quite water resistant.

My next project is a pair of unattached vambraces which need to fit over a hidden elbow cop and padding while also fitting a pre-made steel splint. (The steel splints are 22 gauge 4130 spring steel, hardened and tempered by Krag at the Texas armor-in last weekend.) For this more demanding project I plan to make a last. I will also do some tooling, dye the leather before hardening, and add paint to the tooled detail afterwards.

I realize I'm like a kid with a new hammer here, but I wonder how well rabbit glue would work for attaching linen to a shield's face. It would certainly make it easy to add the gesso layer afterwards. Hmmm.

Edwin · Post by **Edwin** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 10:37 am

Joe, I sent an email to the address you have listed on your archive profile, providing my mundane name. I don't know if you recieved it or not; it was not bounced back to my ISP however.

Anyway, it will have been 5 weeks since I placed an order for the book this tuesday or wednesday. We did have the July 4th holiday in the middle there, so the Postal service on my end may be behind.

My mundane name is James Bohall.

Sextus Maximus · Post by **Sextus Maximus** » Thu Jul 15, 2004 12:32 pm

I am about to make a set of Bazubands and greaves by doing this process. This sounds like a great way in making hardened leather. I am also thinking of making a gorget and possible pteurges with the rabbit glue. To me is seem to be a better process than using wax.

Joe Skeesick · Post by **Joe Skeesick** » Thu Jul 15, 2004 5:54 pm

Edwin,

I passed your name along to Chris. He is making sure your order went out properly. If you don't see it soon get in touch with Chris directly as I will be leaving the country in the next 2 weeks and won't be able to help you on this. I suspect you will see it shortly. I'm sorry you've expearianced any delay in getting the book.

Ronnin, It is, in every way. It can be more time consuming because of the need to build a last but that's about the only downside. Others have made simple pieces without lasts. i don't recomend it but it can be done for some things. Best of luck to you.

J

Sextus Maximus · Post by **Sextus Maximus** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 1:09 am

I hate to look dumb what is a Last?? Is it a form to wrap the piece around when it is curing?? I am just curious...

Reconstruction of late 13th cent. hardened leather vambrace

NIFTY!

hammer shaping leather

HEy Ullieg

Re: HEy Ullieg