Reconstruction of late 13th cent. hardened leather vambrace

[Joe Skeesick]

Yes, it is a wooden form that the leather is nailed around the perimeter to. (every half inch to an inch around... very close spacing) The last is to control the shape of the leather during drying. Without it you can't be sure of what you'll end up with.

J

[Steve S.]

Can anyone think of good alternatives to wood for making such lasts? I'm wondering if perhaps plaster would work, and instead of nailing the leather to it you lash it to the last, using holes around the perimeter of the leather passing behind the last, effectively lacing the leather to the last?

Would plaster stand up to heating in the oven at the temperatures under consideration? I would think so.

Steve

[Sextus Maximus]

Does anyone have any idea or know how to make Lasts say for Bazubands and greaves? I am no wood worker so this is out of my knowledge area. I already have my patterns done for my Bazubands and Greaves. I am very excited on how this will turn out. I even made the pattern bigger for excess so that I could tack it on a Last. Any info would be great.

[Joe Skeesick]

Steve,

I wouldn't doubt that plaster could handle the heat involved in the process but I think you'd have problems with the plaster being torn apart during the drying process. Perhaps if you created a supportive matrix in the last with a wire main structure and fiber tape layers to build up the plaster form you might could make it. I would still have some doubts about strapping the leather to the last though. Especially if you are going to do the laminated leather (two layers of leather glued together with the rabbit glue ) as this is done while the rabbit glue is hot (obviously) and dealing with securing the leather to the last with some sort of twine would be awkward and time consuming. Are you thinking about some sort of body mold kit to speed the making of the last? If so I really don't think that will work.

Ronnin,

Making the lasts are fairly easy. Just get a piece of wood that your arm would just fit inside (if it were hollow) and cut away everything that doesn't look like your arm. A pair of calipers and a draw knife are all we used to make the lasts. (finished up with some sanding) They really aren't very difficult if you just take it a step at a time. Measure your arm with the caliper, gauge it against the wood, cut some off... Measure your arm with the caliper, gauge it against the wood, cut some off... repeat till done.

J

[Steve S.]

Are you thinking about some sort of body mold kit to speed the making of the last? If so I really don't think that will work.

Yea - I'm really looking for a way to avoid going to find some wood and carve it into 8 different forms - 2 thighs, 2 calves, 2 forearms, 2 upper arms.

How did you secure the wood while you carved on it? Where can I buy a draw knife?

Steve

[Joe Skeesick]

I secured the wood in a leg vice (though an engineer vice would work as well if you used some wood or aluminum stips to keep the teeth from biting into your work) . The last can be made with one flat side since the armour will only be covering 3 "sides".

As for where to get a draw knife... well take your pick

ebay has them all the time. You can get a servicable one for about $20.

If you start with one dimention first (such as arm width) then after that is near where you want it start working on the arm depth. Just ruff out the basic shape, then you can go back and carve in the more subtle curve it really isn't too bad. Just a bit daunting when you're looking at your arm and then at a square piece of wood. BTW, use hardwood, you're going to wan to use these more than once and pine will spilt on you.

J

[Sextus Maximus]

I have a friend of mine that has a wood lathe. I was wondering if that would work I think it will since I have seen him make a bat out of solid hickory. I will give him a call and find out...

[Steve S.]

Joe:

I'm considering using this technique to make splinted leather arm and leg harness.

For fully-enclosing vambraces and greaves, do you think the hardened leather will flex enough without cracking to open to get one's leg/arm into the piece, or will they need hinges?

Steve

[Corby de la Flamme]

Ok, I think this is the thread that had links to the extraordinary white painted, gilded, tooled arm harness.

But all the pic links are dead now.

As are the conference note links.

Are any of the original posters still around? I need those pics for a project.

Thanks.

[Kilkenny]

Ok, I think this is the thread that had links to the extraordinary white painted, gilded, tooled arm harness.

But all the pic links are dead now.

As are the conference note links.

Are any of the original posters still around? I need those pics for a project.

Thanks.

I am pretty certain you are correct and this was the thread. I have a copy of the paper (thank you Mord) presented at the conference. Picture quality is not very high in the reproduction. Nothing remotely close to the images that were on the web

[Corby de la Flamme]

Thanks.

Cet is hooking me up. If anyone knows whether the original image has copyright restrictions, I could repost it if allowed.

[Jan van Nyenrode]

Hi,

Just ran across the images belonging to this post just now. So for everyone here they are again.

Cheers,

Max

[Andeerz]

Wow. Awesome thread. Well, I am going to necro this thing with a few questions:

With regard to the original leather armour the OP was trying to emulate, did that thing have a separate upper and lower cannon? Also, has anyone tried this with half-tanned leather? And, lastly, what thickness of leather would be appropriate for vambraces and the like? Thanks. Also, frikkin' awesome thread!

[Kilkenny]

Wow. Awesome thread. Well, I am going to necro this thing with a few questions:

With regard to the original leather armour the OP was trying to emulate, did that thing have a separate upper and lower cannon? Also, has anyone tried this with half-tanned leather? And, lastly, what thickness of leather would be appropriate for vambraces and the like? Thanks. Also, frikkin' awesome thread!

I cannot speak for Joe regarding whether the original piece he was working to reproduce had an upper and lower cannon, but there is a surviving example of a tooled leather upper cannon. I would think that suggests a yes.

I've done some hardening of half tanned leather and I think it is likely part of the secret for getting the stuff "right". I did a test piece elbow cop and could pop it inside out, the leather was that resilient, yet also had surface hardness. Veg-tanned leather treated the same way cracked when I tried the same manipulation.

I use 13-15 oz if I'm going to harden the leather. I think lighter weights are too hard to control the hardening and you tend to get something that is too brittle. That's my opinion based on my experience. Others will differ

[Andeerz]

Cool! Thanks for the info. By 13-15oz., you mean that thickness for normal veg-tanned (not half-tanned) leather, no? I'd imagine for half-tanned you could get away with thinner...

[Maelgwyn]

Where can I get half-tanned leather?

I have glue-hardened leather as light as 10 oz. but the results get less reliable. I usually buy 10-12 oz. sides and use the best/thickest parts for hardening projects. 13-15 oz would be more reliably successful but I'm very stingy about weight.

[Konstantin the Red]

Where can I get half-tanned leather?

Out in the woods, after you get your hunting license, and get good enough at stalking critters. Elk yield large hides, whitetails not so big. On the other claw, whitetails are also less trouble to lug out of the woods.

And later, what with the venison sausage et al., doing your own tannage.

[Andeerz]

Anyone here a tanner?

[Russ Mitchell]

Thought about it, but this summer's gotten away from me. Still debating whether I want to be just that crazy.
I'd rather like to have the wooden lasts I'd need for the job, but I'm a horrific carpenter.

[Kilkenny]

Cool! Thanks for the info. By 13-15oz., you mean that thickness for normal veg-tanned (not half-tanned) leather, no? I'd imagine for half-tanned you could get away with thinner...

Yes, I'm referring to normal veg-tanned at 13-15. I'm uncertain whether the half-tanned would benefit from going lighter, really. I've currently done a number of pieces with some quite heavy half tanned leather. It's stuff that was intended for shoe soles but was rejected due to the tannage. Apparently the shoe makers don't like that you can't cut the stuff with a knife. I use my Beverly shear to cut it. Honestly, this stuff doesn't need any hardening treatment My experience with lighter half-tanned is limited. The stuff isn't readily available, at least not in New Jersey

[Andeerz]

Another question... would such hardened leather pieces be for tournament use or is there evidence that they would be suitable for actual combat?

[Russ Mitchell]

Yes. Particularly the last-hardened half-tanned, which is just ridiculously hard and light for its weight.

[RenJunkie]

Great googly moogly......

Thanks!
Christopher