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LeonJ71 · Post by **LeonJ71** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 1:54 pm

House of the Wolf wrote:I'll buy it for 50 bucks. Just bid on it on Ebay.

Hmmm too late... Was thinking about seeing if it would be cost effective to have the face removed and a grill welded on it for use as a starter helm.

Padrig · Post by **Padrig** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:14 pm

Well I won't comment on the helm and all, it would not do any good at this point. The internet has it's good points but in some situations it just makes things more complicated and create problems that would probably not arise in person. But I have to say this though:

I've met Stephen in person and he is a good guy and a gentle one, not at all like some want to make him look in this thread. So as he says, for some things I respect the opinions of the people around here but as far as Stephen is concerned, I will rely on my own thanks.

Pad

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:36 pm

Padrig,

Stephen and nobody else but Stephen made himself look like whatever he comes across in this thread. He might be a perfectly good fellow in person, but what he posts, and the tone he takes in the posts makes him come across otherwise to many people.

Threatening people at the drop of a hat is not the best way to interact with other people - could we at least agree on this point? Take a look at the tone of the e-mails to Darksword Armoury, and the very title of this thread, and how the whole comes across. His method of dealing with people on the internet seems to be consistant.

At any rate, my commentary was in regards to the actual value of armour, how much work goes into it, and the cost of raw material. IMO, expecting a welded hat to be 'combat worthy' for $200, and actually have it reasonably resemble anything is completely unrealistic, given the cost of living in the United States. To get something that reasonably resembles as visored bascinet for $75 is a bargain - would You be willing to put together visored bascinets like these for $75 each for your pay?

Padrig wrote:Well I won't comment on the helm and all, it would not do any good at this point. The internet has it's good points but in some situations it just makes things more complicated and create problems that would probably not arise in person. But I have to say this though:

I've met Stephen in person and he is a good guy and a gentle one, not at all like some want to make him look in this thread. So as he says, for some things I respect the opinions of the people around here but as far as Stephen is concerned, I will rely on my own thanks.

Pad

Stephen · Post by **Stephen** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 4:08 pm

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Brian W. Rainey · Post by **Brian W. Rainey** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 4:17 pm

Admins.... PLEASE delete this thread. There is NOTHING in this thread that is even somewhat relevant to the furthering of armour knowledge.

Or at least move it to off-topics as EVERY post in it is relevant only to "off-topic".

This entire thread, from the initial post, only serves to plunge the Archive as a whole into ignorance.

Stephen · Post by **Stephen** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 4:23 pm

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Sasha · Post by **Sasha** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 4:29 pm

Sell the helm for whatever you can get. Invest in something to lower your blood-pressure.

Rod Walker · Post by **Rod Walker** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 5:29 pm

Just relax Stephen. I always thought you were a decent guy, but you are coming across a bit weird.

As others have said, you get what you pay for.

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 6:05 pm

Ah, yes. That post would have been in response to you after I had recieved this bizzare, insulting rant of an e-mail from you on May 27th, 2004

Chef,

You have no clue what it takes to be a man. It does take a wide assortment of skills and life exp. You seem to have most of the skills and qualitys to be a young boy who cant decide wether to be a cleric or a holy man. Both are well respected professions. You make the mistake of calling yourself a man. It is not about age. I know you are probably in your late thirties or so. It is a shame you have gotton this far in life without rounding out the whole manhood thing. You can not be a well rounded real man without the chestbeating part. And if you are going to chest beat you have to be able to do so without knocking the wind out of yourself.

I have pity for you. That goes pretty much against my religion, but I can not help it. You are a very learned person but you have let our modern society dupe you into thinking that is all you need. You do the reenactment to validate your self worth as a man. I do it becasue I love that time of men and history. I feel you are at the age when the time to prove yourself as a man is dwindling. One can only hope your death will be a valiant effort to protect your family and friends. You will probably die a straw death (in bed). which will be a more fitting death for a cleric.

You can make fun of men like me. Its ok, really. Its only ok becasue of the time we live in. Thats whats keeps people like you alive. I have people in my area like you. The men I call my friends cant be bothered with them. My friends and I are just as happy cooking a good meal and going to the symphony as we are risking our lives on a daily basis to put animals off the street that would be preying on people like you.

I have led men in battle. I have sent men to thier gods. I have got down on my knees and wept for a fallen comrade. I have looked into my newborns eyes while clasping the hand of my beautiful wife and knew, REALLY knew that I CAN and will protect them till my last breath.

You an only imagine how that feels. And that is way I feel pity for you.

Glory to the Brave

Just so people have some sort of reference to our previous 'conversations', and get a grasp of the state of your apparent mental stability.

Just keep digging that hole for your reputation on the Archive.

Stephen wrote:Chef, you piece of dogshit!

We have had flames for a while. When you posted this:

All I willl say is that if you are so insecure as to keep spouting on about your manhood, mentioning you job, and pointing out your semen count in having produced a child (many immature children, such as you *prove* yourself to be with every single post/letter of this type have spawns of bastards they can't manage to care for - it isn't proof of manhood. I'll be impressed if you are still caring for the kid 10 years from now, and are married to the same woman) then you really must have a very small willy, or you are very short, or lots of kids must have shoved you into your locker in highschool to have turned you into such an loudmouthed wanker.

That is when things changed. I stick by every fucking word I have said to you and about you.

Go ahead and dig up the topic this came from and feel free to post whatever I have said to you. Try and find anything that resembles a verbal attack on you family.

Verbal attacks on you by me yes. And via versa but thats it.

You are a coward who hides behind our mampy pampy society and this thing called a computer. You are a long distance badass!

I don't believe you are a reliable judge of manhood, or courage, not that this matters. Your opinion of me is meaningless to me. I do believe you have an incredible lack of judgement in how you deal with people in public and private.

Cadugan Bolt-Catcher · Sat Dec 18, 2004 6:16 pm

I've got to say,

You paid $75 for the helm, it was a $75 helm.

Still, if they advertise it as being of excellent quality and workmanship, and it has all these problems they should be changing their advertising.

Basically, Buyer be Ware with Ebay.

I really Hate e-bay for chain maille products though. No consideration for handmade quality.

JohnWoods · Post by **JohnWoods** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 9:35 pm

I'll pass the e-bay link around to so people I know who are in the market. Hopefully the people who posted to this thread will put thier money where thier month is, and you end up getting all your money back (not just half).

Ivo · Post by **Ivo** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 10:05 pm

Hello.

I donÃ‚Â´t care about anyoneÃ‚Â´s opinion on my manhood or whatever, but this is getting ugly.
Really ugly.
Way beyond good manners, chivalrous behaviour or whatever anyone might draw his/her pride from.

Close this thread as soon as possible.

Regards

Ivo

Stephen · Post by **Stephen** » Sun Dec 19, 2004 11:46 am

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Ivo · Post by **Ivo** » Sun Dec 19, 2004 12:11 pm

Stephen,

feel free whatever you feel you have to feel, but now leave it at that please and stop writing about it.
You donÃ‚Â´t like chef, and he doesnÃ‚Â´t like you. ItÃ‚Â´s understood.

I wonÃ‚Â´t get any one of us any further to hear more details, really.

Regards

Ivo

Stephen · Post by **Stephen** » Sun Dec 19, 2004 1:03 pm

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Darksword · Post by **Darksword** » Sun Dec 19, 2004 6:14 pm

1. Calling our entire staff "scums" and "Scum of the earth" is uncalled for.

2. You should be honest with board members. Not only is your ebay description false but the helm you are selling on ebay is not the helm we sold you. You have modified it. You are fully entitled to your opinion, but do not modify our products and then "declare" that it was sold by our company. That is misrepresentation.

You are being dishonest with board members. You have attempted to blackmail us prior to your post. Then you have the gaul to call us "scum of the earth"....really nice....We will not resort to personal attacks as you have clearly done. I do not know you personally, but I think you lack integrity. For board members who are interested in seeing what this person actually purchased at 75$, we have posted the link below. If the link does not work, you can view ebay auction number 2290734123

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 34123&rd=1

BlackRain · Post by **BlackRain** » Sun Dec 19, 2004 6:35 pm

Ok... well I for one am interested in hearing what exactly has been modified on this particular helm as you claim he has done? On that .... what proof do you have that he has modified the helm as you say? I did however read that you stated in an email to him that your company did not weld on the eye openings. As a certified welder I can for one say that this particular statement made by Darksword is in fact NOT TRUE based on the pictures supplied in the post. I myself can clearly see where the welding has been done in the picutures supplied in the post. If what you as the representative of Darksword is saying is true then how do you explain that proof? Are you going to have us believe that the customer who has made this complaint got the helm then decided to weld around the eye areas as seen in the picture then grind it down to make it look like shoddy workmanship? I myself have a hard time believing that someone would go through all that trouble just to make your company look bad. Now this is in no way a personal attack or insult to you and your company... I just want t hear/read it right from the horses mouth so to speak about the claims and proof shown here on the forums.

Best Regards,

Sasha · Post by **Sasha** » Sun Dec 19, 2004 8:44 pm

I have viewed the auction and have no stake in this matter at all. Two things are abundently clear to me.

Firstly, most of the flaws int he helm are visible in the pics on the Ebay page (the top of the face opening, the centre of the occulars, the off-centre halves.)

Secondly, I think it is a very bad and dishonest idea to use Negroli's panther helm as your advertising logo. You are an armouring company, advertise using pictures of your own actual product. Unless you feel that its quality will fail to impress (which could explain our dis-satisfyed customer here, because unmet expectation is why people REALLY get angry). Of course I could be wrong and that is a perfect reproduction of the panther helm made by your people...IN WHICH CASE I WILL TAKE TWO!

Sasha

St. George · Post by **St. George** » Sun Dec 19, 2004 10:00 pm

Having had opportunity to read this whole thread, I have to say that I think Stephen is over-reacting a lot.

Perhaps this is because he feels his wife got cheater, or because he was sold an inferior product.

In either case, from looking at the website pictures at DarkSword Armory, and at the pics of the helm you received, it appears that you got exectly what you ordered- and at $75 it isn't a bad deal.

Now can you use it in the manner in which you would like to? Maybe not

Were you consulted as to the size of the helm you would need before your wife ordered it? probnably not if it was a surprise, and that is likely a large part of the reason why it doesn't fit correctly.

Another thig you mention is the gauge of the steel- as most readers of this board know- certainly ones with over 1000 posts, metal gets thinner as you shape it. Just like the 1/4 hamburger you get at McD's is "pre-cooked" weight, the 16 ga helmet that you usually buy is not 16 ga any more by the time it is hammered and polished.

You bought a $75 helmet- it looks like it is worth more than that. Consider yourself lucky that you got a good deal on it.

The helm you are selling looks fine for LARPERS, and for Re-enactors who aren't going to fight in it, and you could have just as easily used it as a prop or set piece that kids could have tried on for your demos. Too bad you are too shortsighted for that.

Alaric

PS- I'd love to find an american armorer who makes a living armoring and makes helmets that look this good and sells them for $75. I don't think they exist.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 12:49 am

DukeAlaric wrote:I'd love to find an american armorer who makes a living armoring and makes helmets that look this good and sells them for $75. I don't think they exist.

Duke Alaric,

They do exist, but like an unstable isotope, they're so short lived that they burn out and disappear before you notice.

I've seen excellent armourers who couldn't price their stuff correctly...in fact, I think it's most of them.

Stephen received a $75 helm for $75. I expect that the helm took 2 hours or less to make (including getting the parts, etc...) because $75 for 2 hours of work is a good living wage for a sheet-metal worker or artist. If it took longer than 2 hours, then Stephen made out like a bandit and should be happy.

I know if I made that same helm, I would have sold it for ~$600 because it would take me two weeks to make, and I've got a family to feed.

The ultra-cheap / ultra-good armourers exist, but they're so short lived because their que fills up, they become overburdened and then gain a reputation for being slow, which they make up for sending out a quick product, and then they get a reputation for being ethically poor...etc...and then they're gone.

-Aaron

Owen · Post by **Owen** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 5:46 am

They do exist, but like an unstable isotope, they're so short lived that they burn out and disappear before you notice.

Aaron, that's the point; they aren't making a living, working that way.

Erik · Post by **Erik** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 9:53 am

I think that in our modern society, most people tend to expect cheap quality...we want what I call "Walmart armour". The fact is that if we all actually lived during the Medieval era, most of us would not even be able to afford the most basic element of armour. Many of us would likely just be the average serf trying to get by, bring in the harvest, raise our children and hope one of the people wearing armour didn't come by and burn down our village.

The point I'm trying to make is that in order to fully appreciate Medieval skills, one needs to be looking at things through a more Medieval viewpoint. Don't get me wrong, I love saving money on something I want just as much as the next person. But I also understand that things are priced for a reason. No one (at least no one that wants to stay in business) prices something low just to be nice. There is no such thing as a free lunch.

As for the feud between Chef and Stephen. I have been a silent observer, as have the rest of us been. I must say to Stephen that while I can sympathize with some of your arguement, you are allowing Chef to use your displeasure with him as leverage. Courage is a grand thing...but it must also be exercised with strategy and nobility. I am assuming that you are both involved in the SCA or some other type of Medieval reecreation activity. Most, if not all of the Medieval groups I have experiences stress the code of chivalry to all its members. We are all fortunate to live in a society where nobility is not a birthright but something that is earned. I implore the both of you to appeal the the better angels of your nature and your judgement and reestablish within yourselves these chivalric ideals. They will serve you and your peers better. We should all practice chivalry and nobility, not just on the field, but in our lives as well.

Stephen · Post by **Stephen** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 10:39 am

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Broadway · Post by **Broadway** » Mon Dec 20, 2004 10:56 am

I am pretty much done with the Archive.

Now, I'm just curious as to why you decided upon that conclusion? You're done with the whole site because of this thread?

rymic · Post by **rymic** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 2:32 pm

This has been a fascinating look in to the human condition in regards to perception of insult.
I think that in any given conversation, or even transaction, a person can see insults or improprieties if that is what they are looking for. I feel sorry for those who go through life in this fashion. However with that being said, your own mind is the only thing you will ever have control over and perception comes from there. Make the choice on how you see the world around you and be content or in constant turmoil depending upon how you decide.

Ugo · Post by **Ugo** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 3:29 pm

Jeff J · Post by **Jeff J** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 3:46 pm

rymic wrote:This has been a fascinating look in to the human condition in regards to perception of insult.
I think that in any given conversation, or even transaction, a person can see insults or improprieties if that is what they are looking for. I feel sorry for those who go through life in this fashion. However with that being said, your own mind is the only thing you will ever have control over and perception comes from there. Make the choice on how you see the world around you and be content or in constant turmoil depending upon how you decide.

Whaddya mean by that, punk?

AaronT · Post by **AaronT** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 3:48 pm

Damn!

Stephans wife thought she was getting a $200.00 helm for $75.00, she was misled and I don't blame Stephan one bit for being pissed.

If I bought something at any business that proclaimed the product to be quality merchandise and it turned out to be crap I'd be there in a heartbeat to recieve a full refund.

It might be worth $75.00 but if I recieved it and it was'nt a $200.00 helm someone would give me a refund or go to court for misrepresentation.

Here what the ad should have said:

Helm for sale, $75.00.

It is priced low because it only took two hours to pound it out and bludgeon it into shape.
We also saved time by not properly welding it.
Note: Please do not use this helm for anything other than a decoration or costume.
Because or the expediant method of construction it is not intended for fighting, or professional reenactments.

Not: This is a $200.00 helm being sold for only $75.00 to make room in the warehouse.

Josh W · Post by **Josh W** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 5:01 pm

I still utterly miss the reason why Stephen is angry with Chef. WTF is going on here?

white mountain armoury · Tue Dec 21, 2004 5:52 pm

Josh, their conflict dates back to an earlier time, and it appears has been reborn on this thread

Ugo · Post by **Ugo** » Tue Dec 21, 2004 6:21 pm

If you ignore it, it might go away...NO, don't look, it'll make it obvious.... Let.. it...go....

Just...walk away......

Oh, yeah,

In with love , out with hate (or sumthin' like that) :twisted:

Gerhard von Liebau · Post by **Gerhard von Liebau** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 11:04 pm

Aaron, I agree totally with what you were saying, but...

They DID offer him a full refund, so, what gives? Even after they replied nicely (even if they were stretching it on a couple of details) he continued to nag them and then made a thread about how "terrible" they were. They had already told him that he could get his refund and spend his $75 elsewhere, but he continued to make a deal out of it. Rather babyish, if you ask me... Even if they were selling garbage, they aren't making anyone keep it, obviously. Let those who will be satasfied take that upon themselves, there is no need to get all huffy, though.

-Gregory-

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 11:46 pm

Gregory J. Liebau wrote:Aaron, I agree totally with what you were saying, but...

They DID offer him a full refund, so, what gives? Even after they replied nicely (even if they were stretching it on a couple of details) he continued to nag them and then made a thread about how "terrible" they were. They had already told him that he could get his refund and spend his $75 elsewhere, but he continued to make a deal out of it. Rather babyish, if you ask me... Even if they were selling garbage, they aren't making anyone keep it, obviously. Let those who will be satasfied take that upon themselves, there is no need to get all huffy, though.

-Gregory-

Offering a full refund is a sign of good service.

-Aaron

PS: I'm Aaron, not AaronT

Samuel · Post by **Samuel** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 2:20 am

Aaron wrote:
Gregory J. Liebau wrote:Aaron, I agree totally with what you were saying, but...

They DID offer him a full refund, so, what gives? Even after they replied nicely (even if they were stretching it on a couple of details) he continued to nag them and then made a thread about how "terrible" they were. They had already told him that he could get his refund and spend his $75 elsewhere, but he continued to make a deal out of it. Rather babyish, if you ask me... Even if they were selling garbage, they aren't making anyone keep it, obviously. Let those who will be satasfied take that upon themselves, there is no need to get all huffy, though.

-Gregory-

Offering a full refund is a sign of good service.

-Aaron

PS: I'm Aaron, not AaronT

thats cause my squires are hunting him, Cad, and "old bear"

they're gonna all be locked in my basement for the next few years making armor and being fed beer and cheetos:-)

ill let htem out after they finish with all the armor Ill ever need:-) im thinking 3 years and nine suits later...........

"It rubs the lotion on the leather!"

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Response from Darksword

Wondering

Human Nature

Re: Human Nature