What is a good Period Helm to go along with my CoP?

Drake Orion · Post by **Drake Orion** » Wed Jan 23, 2002 11:09 am

What is a good Period Helm to go along with my CoP?

I have a Gaa CoP and two welded helm tops. I was thinking of ordering a helm as it is my head and I only have on that thinks.

Also, while I am on the topic what about legs?
HELP!!

Pheylin Quinn · Post by **Pheylin Quinn** » Wed Jan 23, 2002 11:18 am

You are looking for 14th century, right?

Three syllables:

Bascinet!

A Bascinet is the best choice. It has a wonderful glancing surface and looks sweet with a CoP.

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Pheylin Quinn
Hammered Steel by Pheylin
Shire of Ravenslake, Midrealm

[This message has been edited by Pheylin Quinn (edited 01-23-2002).]

JJ Shred · Post by **JJ Shred** » Wed Jan 23, 2002 12:38 pm

Bascinet with klappsvisor, with a pig or hound face, or a small open-faced bascinet with a Pembridge-style overhelm.
A kettlehelm would work as well.

Mad Matt · Post by **Mad Matt** » Wed Jan 23, 2002 1:17 pm

And to continue on with the other options.

Bascinet yes any of the non-great bascinet types.

Greathelms (pembridge, barrel, sugarloaf)

Kettle hat During the 14th century pointy ones were popular (basically a norman conical with a big brim and no nasal) other styles are acceptable as well.

For legs it's going to depend on your helmet sorta.

You can go with anything ranging from full steel shell articulation to splinted to hardened leather to floating steel etc. Just keep the articulation type within those produced during the 14th century. ie no 5 piece knees.

Sabatons and greaves should really be there too. Splinted greaves or cuirboulle or full steel are all acceptable types. Sabatons should stick to 14th century styling. Ie. modestly pointed toe (basically a little longer and pointier then a turnshoe).

That should about cover it. The beauty of the 14th century is that you get to mix and match stuff like crazy and still keep things belonging together.

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The budding mid 14th century German Transitional guy.
Mad Matt's Armory

[This message has been edited by Mad Matt (edited 01-23-2002).]

Drake Orion · Post by **Drake Orion** » Wed Jan 23, 2002 1:58 pm

Matt those sound like great ideas...

Helm: I was leaning toward Olaf's bargrilled sallet...due to price and a similiar surface as the bascinet. I guess it is to late for a CoP though. The problem with the bascinet is that so many people want them and it seems that armourers are sick of making them and charge more.

Legs: Full steel huh? I am guessing here but gutter style would work the best? Greaves that is.

SyrRhys · Post by **SyrRhys** » Wed Jan 23, 2002 5:09 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Drake Orion:
What is a good Period Helm to go along with my CoP?

I have a Gaa CoP and two welded helm tops. I was thinking of ordering a helm as it is my head and I only have on that thinks.

Also, while I am on the topic what about legs?
HELP!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A lot of the answer to your question is going to depend upon what you want out of your harness. The best helm to go with a CoP, in my not-so-humble opinion, is the Pembridge-style great helm (with breaths on both sides of the face...). Vision is excellent, the helm is comfortable, and it's much, much lighter than a bascinet.

I know, I know, I'm spouting heresy... but the fact is that a basinet requires an aventail, and most aventails (even welded or riveted ones) are fairly heavy. Personally, this doesn't bother me; I switch back and forth between a great helm and a basinet, but it's a real factor for some.

Of course, this presumes that you can get a good reproduction great helm: Most SCA helms I've seen with their flat sides (real great helms were slightly dished in the upper plates to prevent them from denting) tend to look like the front end of a car that's run into a wall.

Another heresy is the glancing surfaces argument: Glancing surfaces aren't of much use against the clubs with which we fight!

In addition, remember that all SCA combat, even "wars" is really tournament combat, mot warfare. Why is that relevant? Well, wearing a great helm gives you the opportunity for even more ostentatious display! Contrary to what a lot of SCAdians seem to think, there's no evidence for creasts and mantling on basinets. Yes, later-period (i.e., 15th century) great bascinets were often worn with orles (basically padded rings originally designed to support a jousting helm, but later worn on their own with all sorts of neat decoration), but that would require you to wear an Agincourt-style full white harness, and that's way past the CoP you're talking about. Anyway, you can put a torse and mantling and even a crest on a great helm, and that's just cool.

As to your leg armor, you probably could wear plate cuisses and be correct, but consider wearing splinted leather cuisses. These can be seen a number of places, both with dependant poleyns (e.g., the effigy of Sir Miles Stapleton) and with articulated poleyns (e.g., the manuscript illumination of Edward III giving the BP the Aquitaine).

The problem with most plate armor is that SCA armorers make it *much* heavier than it was in period. As a result, it doesn't function as medieval armor did. There are a handful of armorers making hardened spring steel armor, and if you can get something from them (I have a new pair of legs coming from Mac that weigh almost nothing!) that's great, but otherwise, rememebr that we're not a "vignette society", we should be striving for living history. It's not enough to look like a knight, you have to be able to do the things a knight did, and if you're wearing 14 guage plate legs you probably can't.

And, while we're discussing leg armor, remember greaves! I know that the vast majority of armorers can't make functional closed greaves, but I can document front greaves all the way to the end of the 14th century, and there's no excuse not to wear them. As Mac says, "Medieval chicks dig 'em".

I wouldn't worry to much about sabatons, however: The evidence seems clear that most knights left them off to fight afoot, and all of out combat is afoot.

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Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field: Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

Otto · Post by **Otto** » Wed Jan 23, 2002 10:33 pm

Go with the steel greaves!!! I always had them (and will again, lord willing)... as a child, I took a baseball line-drive to the front of my shin... I NEVER wish to experience THAT bit of fun again!

jgalak · Post by **jgalak** » Fri Jan 25, 2002 6:11 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by SyrRhys:
Another heresy is the glancing surfaces argument: Glancing surfaces aren't of much use against the clubs with which we fight!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would have to disagree with this remark. I have frequently seen and felt glancing surfaces help in SCA-style rattan combat. This is especially true for blows that come straight down on the top of a helm. A shot that is slightly off-center will still land soundly on a flat-topped helm, bt will glance off harmlessly on a pointy-top helm.

The rest of SyrRhys' comments are absoulutely true.

Ned Chaney · Post by **Ned Chaney** » Fri Jan 25, 2002 6:26 pm

Pembridge style great helm or bascinet! Bascinet's are beautiful. You can wear several different type visors with them, and you can hang a very attractive aventail off the bottom. A sallet is later period and usually worn more with full plate if I'm not mistaken.

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Emm aye sea kayee why. Emm ohyou essee.

Mad Matt · Post by **Mad Matt** » Fri Jan 25, 2002 7:15 pm

Actually if you're going properly historically accurate then a Pembridge is NOT lighter then a bascinet. The reason being you should be wearing a bascinet with an aventail UNDERNEATH of the pembridge. The crosses cut out at the front bottom edge of the helmet are there for chains which attach to the body armour. To keep the helmet from gettin lost after it comes off.

Splinted leather cuisses I've never seen represented historically unless you assume that rivits mean splints on the inside. Generally though they'd be referred to as brig or studded.

Plate cuisses are good from about 1360 and on. You could even get away with a little earlier.

Greaves I've never seen plate greaves that did not have a wrap plate represented in any historical materials. So going with wrap around greaves is the more likely way to go. They look cool too.

Splinted greaves are common but they're only good anywhere but germany very early in the 14th century. Germanics liked em a lot and kept em around longer.

Anyway any time I say I haven't seen something doesn't mean there are no references for it just that I haven't seen it.

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The budding mid 14th century German Transitional guy.
Mad Matt's Armory

SyrRhys · Post by **SyrRhys** » Fri Jan 25, 2002 8:06 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mad Matt:
Actually if you're going properly historically accurate then a Pembridge is NOT lighter then a bascinet. The reason being you should be wearing a bascinet with an aventail UNDERNEATH of the pembridge. The crosses cut out at the front bottom edge of the helmet are there for chains which attach to the body armour. To keep the helmet from gettin lost after it comes off.

Splinted leather cuisses I've never seen represented historically unless you assume that rivits mean splints on the inside. Generally though they'd be referred to as brig or studded.

Plate cuisses are good from about 1360 and on. You could even get away with a little earlier.

Greaves I've never seen plate greaves that did not have a wrap plate represented in any historical materials. So going with wrap around greaves is the more likely way to go. They look cool too.

Splinted greaves are common but they're only good anywhere but germany very early in the 14th century. Germanics liked em a lot and kept em around longer.

Anyway any time I say I haven't seen something doesn't mean there are no references for it just that I haven't seen it.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

While there is some evidence that bascinets were worn underneath great helms, I still stick by what I said, for several reasons. First, it's unlikely that most SCAdian fighters will go to that trouble. Second, it isn't clear at *all* that bascinets were always worn under helms; in fact, Mac doesn't think so. He points out, for example, that that the bascinet the BP is wearing on his effigy wouldn't fit into the great helm he has for a pillow (nor would the proportions work for his actual helm). Yes, there are some good primary sources showing that this was done at least some of the time, but it wasn't universal. Third, if you do wear a basinet under your great helm you can wear a lighter bascinet, both in terms of thickness of metal and in terms of size (think cervelliere rather than the later high points). My main point, however, was the first one: Most SCAdians just won't do it.

As to splinted cuisses, I think it's very clear that these studs were meant to represent the rivets that hold splints in place, else there would be no conceiveable reason for them; the studs themselves would have to be placed much closer together to be of any value by themselves. Moreover, they look just like the studs that hold plates in a coat of plates, which we know to have been there to hold plates inside the shell.

As for greaves, you're right that the closed greave is the most commonly-shown form in the 14th century, however I have *several* primary-source examples of front greaves in the iconography (sources upon request). In addition, I have several inventories (one of an English Duke) which show men owning front greaves.

More importantly, however, closed greaves are among the hardest pieces of armor for SCAdian armorers to build. Since we're supposed to be acting like knights, it doesn't make sense to wear gear that you can't get to work correctly (as long as something just as accurate, if slightly less common) can be substituted. Greaves are *much* more complicated to make than people realize, and many folks that wear them don't actually fight competitvely in them, so they don't realize how poorly theirs are made.

As for plate cuisses, once again you have to consider the *function* of the piece. SCA armor takes a terrible beating, so SCA armorers tend to make cuisses out of 14-guage steel. This makes a harness that doesn't allow the wearer to function as he would in real armor, or else puts you in the position of having to have your cuisses re-built on a frequent basis.

You *can* find armorers to make hardened spring steel legs (Mac is making me a set right now) which look *and* function like the real thing, but I only know of a handful (maybe three of any real skill) who can do so.

And, of course, most SCAdian armorers do articulation so pooly that the weight of the legs isn't really the main factor. Making splinted legs is much easier for most of these guys, so they often end up with a more functional product.

I think that as we push people to assemble ever more accurate harnesses it's important to emphasize function as well as shape. If fighters try to assemble an accurate harness then find out that it's clumsy, restrictive or uncomfortable they'll tend to be justifiably disenchanted.

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Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field: Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"