Question regarding the fault on the correzina harness

[Steve S.]

Thanks for the illustrations of the corrazine brigandines, esepcially Armi Difensive dal Medioevo All'eta Moderna. Boccia, L.G. Page 52. I like this style of armour a lot. I have worn a coat of plates in the past (Wisby #1, Type I), and it's pricinple drawback is it almost requires assistance to get into and out of. I say "almost" because I could, with extreme discomfort and effort, buckle myself in and get out of the armour, but basically, you need help. For SCA combat, I want to be able to arm and disarm myself.

I am curious, what do they look like from the sides? Do the plates split down the sides, or do the plates (hoops) continue all around, split only down the front?

Steve

[Brian W. Rainey]

And further, while we're splitting semantic hairs, what exactly is the etymology of the term 'corrazina' or 'corrizone'? Is it the Italian equivalent of the French 'cuirass'? If this is the case, 'corrizone' in Datini's inventory may translate literally as the generic 'body armor,' and 'brighantine' to 'of small plates.' If so, the persistent use of the word 'corrazina' to refer to any type of covered body armor may not be as wrong as all that. I would hesitate to refer to a large-plate or solid-breasted covered armor a 'brigandine,' though.

Klaus

The Italian word Corazzina (1 R, 2 Zs) is a French word cuirass do not define the same thing and are not necessarily interchangeable.

I believe there is a definition of the term in Armi Difensive dal Medioevo All'eta Moderna. I can translate it, if needed.

I also believe that Blair provides adequate definition of the two terms in European Armour.

When I get home this evening, I will also identify what the French word for corazzina is.... if there is one.

[Brian W. Rainey]

I am curious, what do they look like from the sides? Do the plates split down the sides, or do the plates (hoops) continue all around, split only down the front?

Steve

If you are refering to Boccia's drawings.... they are not hoops but smaller plates that wrap horizontally around. I would assume that this would provide greater freedom of movement than "hoops" or a continuous fauld style.

[Kel Rekuta]

And further, while we're splitting semantic hairs, what exactly is the etymology of the term 'corrazina' or 'corrizone'? Is it the Italian equivalent of the French 'cuirass'? If this is the case, 'corrizone' in Datini's inventory may translate literally as the generic 'body armor,' and 'brighantine' to 'of small plates.' If so, the persistent use of the word 'corrazina' to refer to any type of covered body armor may not be as wrong as all that. I would hesitate to refer to a large-plate or solid-breasted covered armor a 'brigandine,' though.

Klaus

The Italian word Corazzina (1 R, 2 Zs) is a French word cuirass do not define the same thing and are not necessarily interchangeable.

I believe there is a definition of the term in Armi Difensive dal Medioevo All'eta Moderna. I can translate it, if needed.

I also believe that Blair provides adequate definition of the two terms in European Armour.

When I get home this evening, I will also identify what the French word for corazzina is.... if there is one.

Blair, European Armour pg 58

A development from the coat of plates that remained in general use until the 17th century was the brigandine (also called cuirassine in France).

Considering Datini was selling armour in Avignon, "corazzina" isn't too far off "cuirassine", is it?

Brian, is the actual text from Datini's inventory quoted in your significant selection of Italian texts? Origo's translated work on Datini describes chorazone brigantina as infantry armour, but doesn't comment on the "cuirasses" vs breastplates in the same line.

The translation you offered would be useful, if you have time. Thanks.

[Klaus the Red]

This then begs the question- which came first, the Italian or the French? "Cuirass" derives, I think, from "cuir," leather. Is "corazina" an Italicized version of a French word "cuirassine", or a parallel evolution with a different origin- ie, from "corse" or "corps", body? And in any case, what specifically is it about the word that denotes "a body armor made of small plates covered in fabric overall," and not just a generic term for a body armor?
As usual, I think we all suffer from the modern tendency to pigeonhole everything by name and category. The armorers and consumers of the time were undoubtedly not so picky.

Klaus

[Brian W. Rainey]

Blair, European Armour pg 58

A development from the coat of plates that remained in general use until the 17th century was the brigandine (also called cuirassine in France).

Considering Datini was selling armour in Avignon, "corazzina" isn't too far off "cuirassine", is it?

Brian, is the actual text from Datini's inventory quoted in your significant selection of Italian texts? Origo's translated work on Datini describes chorazone brigantina as infantry armour, but doesn't comment on the "cuirasses" vs breastplates in the same line.

The translation you offered would be useful, if you have time. Thanks.

Perhaps I am mistaken, but I thought Blair mentioned the "corazzina" specifically in European Armour? I do not have it handy to reference.

Brian

[Kel Rekuta]

Perhaps I am mistaken, but I thought Blair mentioned the "corazzina" specifically in European Armour? I do not have it handy to reference.

Brian

Only in the Datini quote from the same page. Not much to go on. Many authors quote the Datini inventory but its a bit underdescriptive.

We're sure there was some form of late 14thC brigandine construction involving large plates, but we have little more than pictorial evidence of its form. Does that sum up the current state of information?

[Strongbow]

Visually, these defences first appear circa 1376-79, in the frescos of Altichiero da Zevio, in the Basilica di S. Antonio, Padua. ditto his slightly later fresco of the beheading of S. George, in the Oratorio di S. Giorgio, in Padua.

Do we use Coats of Plates prior to this?

[chef de chambre]

Visually, these defences first appear circa 1376-79, in the frescos of Altichiero da Zevio, in the Basilica di S. Antonio, Padua. ditto his slightly later fresco of the beheading of S. George, in the Oratorio di S. Giorgio, in Padua.

Do we use Coats of Plates prior to this?

Well, the Dhantini inventory is almost a decade earlier. I guess it depends on where you are. The only honest answer to many of these questions (at the moment) can be "I don't know". I am inclined to believe that the brigandine emerges in mid 14th century Italy, while the coat of plates is still going strong in Northern Europe. There is at least one (and I believe two) late 14th century English inventories listing both brigandines and coats of plates.

[Brian W. Rainey]

Well, the Dhantini inventory is almost a decade earlier. I guess it depends on where you are. The only honest answer to many of these questions (at the moment) can be "I don't know". I am inclined to believe that the brigandine emerges in mid 14th century Italy, while the coat of plates is still going strong in Northern Europe. There is at least one (and I believe two) late 14th century English inventories listing both brigandines and coats of plates.

I believe you are correct in that there are two inventories that distinctly mention both styles. I will rifle through my notes when I get home to see if I can identify the particular inventories. Do you know which inventories?

I thought it odd to see both in the same list. However, I do not remember the date of the lists... only that they were last quarter of the 14th.

Bob is correct in that there will always be an "I don't know" factor. The written word was not always the same from year to year and location to location. And, as Bob is VERY well aware, deciphering exactly what the described item is can sometimes be a long path down a lonely road.