NEWBIE QUESTIONS ANSWERED - Add your Input !!!

[Angusm0628]

Anybody have some info/history of various styles of helms?


Don

All over this archive. Threads are everywhere regarding helms, time frames etc.

The I wanna be forum would be the easiest place to start.

[don]

I was thinking more in one place, like an essay or a single post for all to read

I understand helms evolved from one to another to yet another; but I was thinking more about the shape/style of helm over many cultures/times, like a conical can become a centerpoint bascinet or a turban helm for example

Don

[Angusm0628]

Someone here on the archive (may have been konstantin or Irish) posted a helm geneaology here some time ago. It may have gotten lost in the crash

[don]

Hopefully, I've started a new thread on the WTB forum

Don

[Steelbash]

Sorry to change the subject don, but the subject title above is a badly mangled quote but very true- do not hit hard but true.I've not seen or heard this enough from armourers .Bashing the crap out of something just makes more work for yourself in the long run so smack it just enough to get the job done,kinda like your kids.....kidding kidding kidding,take it easy,all my kids are beat free!.How do you know how hard is too hard ? If it takes more time to even out the lumpy bits than it takes to make the entire piece...you're bashed too hard.Yes..(head hanging) ,I know this from personal experience.

don,greetings from the north

[Halberds]

This is one if you like great helms:

http://home.scarlet.be/~klauwaer/helm/

I don't know what happened to the helm tree ether.

[Jarisleif]

I am working on an SCA Legal suit of Lamellar for my Varangian Guard thing, and I was wondering, for the armor, would it be alright to use 20-Gauge steel wire instead of, say, regular string in attaching the plates to each other? I just want that extra-bit of hardness, not to mention the fact that I think it'd be pretty neat to see the shiny steel wire poking out from the rather dull Mild steel.

[Peter Baker]

Tempering and Hardening steels.
This is a few things I've learned from 6 years as a blade smith.


The normal temperature for hardening is 1450 F, whether doing oil, water, brine, or acetone quench. However, it's best, especially if you're using tool steels, to do a test on a piece of scrap from your piece to see how well it'll hold up to the stress of rapid heating and cooling so you can adjust the temperature as needed, but don't go below 1250 F, as it won't harden at all. This is all useful if you have good temperature control or a pyrometer, but, barring that, you want the piece to be no lighter than a salmon orange color, and no darker than a medium cherry.
It's important when you harden to let the piece sit at the desired temperature for at least 10 minutes, and for thicker pieces it may be necessary to go up to 30 minutes or higher. The reason for this is to let the temperature soak all the way into the piece, so you get an even harden and are less likely to develop cracks and fractures.

Alternately, you can talk to the mill you got it from and they can tell you what temperatures and quenches are best for a particular type of steel they sell, but if you got it from a small welding shop, scrap pile, junkyard, etc., this isn't really an option.

On to tempering. Tempering is a way of refining the hardness of you hardened steel. The purpose is to add toughness to your piece of hard, but brittle, steel so that it can hold up to the rigors of everyday life without shattering. The tempering you'll most likely be doing for amour can be done in a normal electric oven. In fact, this tool is ideal, because you can let it sit for as long as needed to ensure proper temperature saturation.
Temperatures are as follows: Light Straw, 400 F; Straw, 440 F; Dark Straw, 475 F; Bronze, 520 F; Peacock, 540 F; Full Blue, 590 F, Light Blue, 640 F.
Typically with armor you want a straw to dark straw temper, as this provides springyness to the steel, and the end hardness of the piece goes up the darker you get, so a full blue is quite hard, and usually reserved for edge tools, such as chisels and punches.

Quenching is, quite simply, dousing steel in a solution and stirring it around to cool it rapidly. The more thermal shock it receives, the harder and more brittle the piece is going to be. Water is the most common quench, and will produce a pretty good all around steel. Salt water, whether warmed or chilled, will produce a slightly harder piece, and is good for chisels, punches, etc. Oil is common for armourers and bladesmiths alike, and will result in a much tougher, though slightly softer, steel. I have no experience with acetone, though I am given to understand that it will produce something quite hard if it survives the shock.

That should cover the very basics, I'd go into more detail, but I'm in a hurry and must leave you now.

[Mondor]

I don't want to come up with a generic Arabic or Saracen personna. I want to be more specific than that.

I want something for the people who want to be the guy in the mirror, and given the rules of the SCA, that is a little difficult.

f

Frieman
I just went thru this thread and saw your request. Why not a Moor living in Spain after the Expulsion ?
Think about it a second. First off it would be different than the typical Saracen. It would allow some room regarding Garb and armour. And it would be plausible.

From what I have been able to glean from secondary and tertiary sources dark skinned people were fairly rare and considered somewhat exotic but were by no means unknown in most of the major Western European trading ports. So a second or third generation son of a trader could easily (well as easily as any other SCA personna) pick up the profession of arms, become landed, and fit into the "knight in shining armor" world with considerable ease, especially in the cosmopolitan Mediterranean basin. I guess Othello would be the arch-type. The "Moors" also had fairly long term control of parts of Italy, so you may want to consider that as an option.

[Oskar der Drachen]

I'm new to all of this and am wanting to make a dishing stump.
I've got a hold of a level tree stump but I dont know how to make the dishing bowl in it...the closest thing I can figure is chiseling out wood and that'd take a long time...is there a method I'm missing? Help a newb out.

Chisel and then pound smooth-ish is the method I've seen suggested most often. Drilling some holes would speed the process up, maybe. With the right tools, you could grind it out. You could char it. Never done it myself (in the newb boat right with you) but those are all possibilities

I had a really good result with an angle grinder and a cutting wheel. It made just the right sized hole in the stump, with the added neatness of not having to chisel much out, and not having to dodge or finesse a saw blade.

Cut one slot, and then across at 90 degrees. Half and half again till you can rotate the grinder to get the sticky out bits. If you use the guard it sinks the hole just enough to be deep enough.

Lots of smoke, but you have to do it outside anyway...

[Konstantin the Red]

A method similar to the grinder method is using a circular saw about the same way. You start with two cuts perpendicular to each other, crossing in a + mark, down to any depth including maximum, which is about three inches.

Lean the saw on its nose so the blade is clear of the top of the stump, swing the blade guard out of the way, and trigger the saw into action.

Slowly and gently lower the spinning teeth of the saw blade to cut down into the stump. Slow motion equals controlled cutting and the saw won't buck on you.

With your two cross cuts defining a couple of diameters of your dish, continue these cuts around , converting your cross into an asterisk of many legs.

You can gently move your saw blade to the side of a cut to use it sort of like a milling machine, or after you get tired of making dozens of eentsy-thin pie slices you can go after the remaining wood with a chisel.

A softwood like pine will smooth out readily under hammering and hammering with a piece of sheet steel in your dish, but you may also resort to a flap disc sander chucked into your electric drill.

[gothera]

so im kinda new to all the different steels. when it comes to sca armor
most places offer steel (mild?),stainless, and spring steel
for things like arms, helms,gaunts. what are differences in each metal besides the price. ive noticed for the most part a piece in stainless will be a thinner gauge then same piece in mild steel. is that the same with spring steel? its really the spring steel that throws me. thanks

[hrolf]

so im kinda new to all the different steels. when it comes to sca armor
most places offer steel (mild?),stainless, and spring steel
for things like arms, helms,gaunts. what are differences in each metal besides the price. ive noticed for the most part a piece in stainless will be a thinner gauge then same piece in mild steel. is that the same with spring steel? its really the spring steel that throws me. thanks

The material properties of heat-treated spring steel allow it to have the equivalent performance of heavy-gauge mild steel at much thinner gauge. Stainless steel does this too, but to a lesser extent.

Spring steel is called spring steel because it is used, primarily, to make springs. Big surprise. It differs from mild steel in carbon content - it has a higher carbon/iron ratio than mild (and a lower carbon/iron ratio than tool steels or cast iron, neither of which make particularly good armor)

The advantage of the added carbon is that if you carefully apply heat while making the piece, you can create something that is what material scientists call "tough" : it is hard enough to resist high-pressure impacts, but ductile enough to not shatter on impact. Good for armor. Like mild steel, though, spring steel is susceptible to rust, so you still have to take care of it.

Conventional wisdom holds that, especially for helms, you want heavy gauge (12 or 14) steel regardless of what kind of steel is used - because the mass of the helm is a greater contributor to overall protection than the material properties of the steel used to make it.

This factor is generally less relevant for body protection, which is part of why armorers are offering very thin but strong spring steel armor: it weighs significantly less than its mild cousin.

[Boy Jaymes Chipendale]

I will finally be able to fight in a few months(may) and i am hoping to develop a roman persona, but the problem with that is that any way i could wear a lorica segmentata would put me way out of period (100 AD at max) and i already have a roman style helm that my dad got from Shaddan. i know that he wore a segmentata with it, and i was curious if a roman persona would ruin the SCA image of being middle ages? would a persona lower than 600 AD work? are there any special rules or things that might make an exception?

[Boy Jaymes Chipendale]

sorry if this is wrong forum, but if it is OK i could use some armor tips to go with a segmentata. I need ideas for leggings, gauntlets, Belt, ETC.

[Witchfinder]

Might be worth adding the Iron Dwarf to the "Tools and Supplies" section:

http://www.medievalmade.co.uk/tools/

Also, newbie armourers should be made aware of the risks of Tennis Elbow. Threads:

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... p?t=107289
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... p?t=107131

[Serafima Medvednikova]

i recently bought a nice haul of lamilar plates and wante to make a skirt to cover my rear and thighs, but i don't have a pattern and am stuck a bit. i don't think i have enough to make a coat, but definitely a skirt. anyone have any good patterns to make one?

[Halberds]

Patterns.

Yes, many patterns exist on the web.
I think one should make their patterns by looking at the period art or preserved pieces.

Poster board is good to start with + some tools.
Sharpie
Scissors
Tape measure
Tape, stapler or brads
Tin foil for the dished pieces

At least one can pattern it right on themselves.
Try on your poster board and tin foil taped up pattern and see how it looks and feels.
Don't forget to add for the padding.

Mark it with the sharpie black marker for the trim cuts.
Scissor the final shape.
Open it back up and trace the pattern around your metal.
Botta Boom Botta Bing.
Custom fitting armour.

Hal

[sire eric]

there is a lot of pattern in to Armour - Design and Construction forum
but is not easy of all find them
why this pattern are not in Pattern Archive ?
it would be good for everybody

[fghthty545y]

Guys,

I have an unusual "I wanna be" thread.

I don't know how to express this without being offensive.

I want to find a decent, fun, and non-stupid persona that a black guy can portray at Pennsic. I know some black folks who come to Pennsic and they have expressed to me that they feel like (I am quoting here) "The only chocolate cone in the vanilla factory". Some of them camp with me, off and on.

I don't want to come up with a generic Arabic or Saracen personna. I want to be more specific than that.

I want to come up with two good personas that a person with darker skin can portray and actually look like the person he is attempting to portray. Better yet, I would like to come up with several, so that I have a choice to offer when dealing with newbies.

I want to present them with at least two options.

First, the easy one, is to come up with a persona that a person could use at war. A soldier that could very easily be seen on the field in the SCA's period, who had origins in a country or culture where darker skin is not out of the ordinary.

The second is more difficult. I want to find a way that a guy can portray a person of darker skin that would be accepted on the field during the time that might be called "The Great Age of the Tournament." I want an option to present somebody who really wants to portray a "Knight in Shining Armor" who would naturally be found on the tourney field in Europe, competing for renown. I am offering bonus points if the persona could easily have been at The Battle of the Thirty.

Yes, I know that we have a lot of black guys who portray Vikings, or Mongols, or Templars.

I want something for the people who want to be the guy in the mirror, and given the rules of the SCA, that is a little difficult.

We need more folks.

f

What about an Assyrian?

[sha-ul]

What about an Assyrian?

silk road trader?

[Gest]

Freiman,

Here's a link to a painting by Matthias Grunewald, 1520 AD, showing St. Maurice in full harness:http://africa.argmaur.org/knights.html

-- Gest

[Gustavo]

Hello, people.

I'm new to armor making and after finishing my first maille armor I'm trying to build a simple great helmet (the one avaiable in arador's techniques and tutorials page, created by a guy named K. Grayson).

Anyway, I'm having big trouble finding rivets here in São Paulo, Brazil. It is likely that i'm not looking at the right places but all i can find are some industries that make them that are located in towns not very close to mine, so i must have them delivered by mail without seeing them... It also seems that rivets are not cheap so i cant afford to go buying a whole lot of them (i'm still a college student, so i'm always broke).

To sum it up, i need good information about the rivets i need so i don't waste money buying unsuited stuff.

If someone can help telling me what rivet measures are the best to put togeather two steel plates 2mm tick and also 3 plates 2mm tick i would appreciate that very much.

I would also like to know what type of rivet is the most adequate for the job (i'm most likely going to hammer it into the plates): solid rivets; semi tubular rivets or any other type.

Thanks, everyone.

Gustavo M.

[marcos.blues]

Olá Gustavo,

Seja bem-vindo.

Eu também sou do Brasil.
Eu não domina o idioma, mas estou sempre assistindo ao noticiário.
Aqui, o pessoal é muito bom.

@ gmail.com blues.marcosii
www.mlartefatosmedievais.com.br

[Aaryq]

I will finally be able to fight in a few months(may) and i am hoping to develop a roman persona, but the problem with that is that any way i could wear a lorica segmentata would put me way out of period (100 AD at max) and i already have a roman style helm that my dad got from Shaddan. i know that he wore a segmentata with it, and i was curious if a roman persona would ruin the SCA image of being middle ages? would a persona lower than 600 AD work? are there any special rules or things that might make an exception?

I always thought that look was cool ever since I saw History of the World Part 1. Anyone able to answer this?

[Konstantin the Red]

Anyway, I'm having big trouble finding rivets here in São Paulo, Brazil. It is likely that i'm not looking at the right places but all i can find are some industries that make them that are located in towns not very close to mine, so i must have them delivered by mail without seeing them... It also seems that rivets are not cheap so i cant afford to go buying a whole lot of them (i'm still a college student, so i'm always broke).

To sum it up, i need good information about the rivets i need so i don't waste money buying unsuited stuff.

If someone can help telling me what rivet measures are the best to put togeather two steel plates 2mm tick and also 3 plates 2mm tick i would appreciate that very much.

I would also like to know what type of rivet is the most adequate for the job (i'm most likely going to hammer it into the plates): solid rivets; semi tubular rivets or any other type.

Bemvenido, Gustavo! Welcome and well come to the Archive.

Well, at the worst, you can buy large nails and cut them down to the needed length. We quite often do this when we make a 13th-century barrel helm: there is one place in the middle of both sides of the helm where four different 2mm metal plates overlap each other and that needs a long rivet to clinch them all together. So -- a nice big nail to the rescue!

Even the rest of the nail's shank, which you have cut off, may be used as a rivet -- a flush rivet. Flush rivets need the rivet holes chamfered, which is to drill your hole for the shank of the rivet first in the proper size, then use the largest drill bit you have to make both sides of the hole you drilled into cones. Hammer the rivet ends into these cones. The rivet will not protrude above the rest of the metal. Or maybe only just a little bit. You can make a flush rivet practically disappear by pounding it down well and sanding any extra away with emery cloth such as is used in auto body work to smooth out the metal and the Bondo body putty.

Okay, so much for flush riveting. Flush riveting is easiest with thick metal, like 2mm and more.

Since you are muy pobre, I think you should just buy nails and make rivets of them most of the time until you are working and making some money. Rivets can be rather expensive up here in el Norte too.

Solid rivets are the kind you want, in steel and in brass. Very old English-language documents from back in armoring times called rivets "arming-nails." Spelling could be erratic then too -- you might see this written something like "armyng nayles" which still sounded the same.

[Konstantin the Red]

I will finally be able to fight in a few months(may) and i am hoping to develop a roman persona, but the problem with that is that any way i could wear a lorica segmentata would put me way out of period (100 AD at max) and i already have a roman style helm that my dad got from Shaddan. i know that he wore a segmentata with it, and i was curious if a roman persona would ruin the SCA image of being middle ages? would a persona lower than 600 AD work? are there any special rules or things that might make an exception?

Doesn' t ruin anything. It would just be more fifth-century than seventh. Unless I am quite behind the curve, SCA period ran from the fall of Rome (AD 410 or 476, take your pick -- either year was a tough one to be Roman) through 1603 when Elizabeth I died.

You want a segmentata, enjoy a segmentata. There is lots of very good info on Legio XX's site, particularly about segmentata building.

I think my Google-fu is weak this morning. The hits I get on Shaddan or Shaddan Enterprises come up a Pakistani textile concern. Have you a link?

[Red Dragon]

The original post needs an update, though I would suggest a repost, since this went way off topic.

[muiehaha]

Hey. I want to begin to make my own armor (at least i want to try), but i want to make a greek cuirass... I saw that you guys have only medieval patterns. Anyone could give me a tip or anything? Its my first project and i dont know how to start...so, any help would be great. Thank you.

[Malcolm ap Gwilim]

I have been looking over the archive and haven't really found a place to post my question so I'll ask it here and hope someone can point me to the right thread or get an answer. This is my second year in the SCA, and my second year fighting. I have to turn in my baronial loaner gear soon and was wondering if paintball/motocross body armor would do under a tunic. I have steel legs, spaulders and vambraces from Stonekeep, as well as some shiny vambraces I am ordering from Iror, demi gauntlets and hopefully soon a kidney belt from Schmitthenner. I'm a student and though my wife is working it's hard to come up with the higher denominations for good torso gear. I don't intend to keep the body armor/tunic set up, but it would really help me get back into the game fast in the short term.

Thank you for any input.

Malcolm ap Gwilim

[Maelgwyn]

I ... was wondering if paintball/motocross body armor would do under a tunic. I have steel legs, spaulders and vambraces from Stonekeep, as well as some shiny vambraces I am ordering from Iror, demi gauntlets and hopefully soon a kidney belt from Schmitthenner.

For any particular set of paintball/motocross body armour you would need to have a marshal take a look at it and see whether it qualified as "rigid" and whether it covered the right areas. With most body armour a kidney belt is unnecessary because the body armour covers the kidneys. For new fighters on a student budget I usually have them scrounge up an empty plastic soap barrel from a car wash and then help them cut it into plates, tie the plates together with nylon cord, and make a safe and comfortable low-profile body armour for practically no cost. As the next step up, use the same barrel to make plates and rivet them onto a 2-layer canvas shell for a 14th cent. coat of plates at minimal cost. I use roofing nails for the rivets. So unless the modern sports gear is free to you, I'd suggest skipping it and making what you need.

I also suggest that you pick a time, place and combat role from history to give focus to your armouring efforts. If you know who/what/when/where you want to look like on the field, it is usually possible to plan and achieve that look at a moderate cost, without visible anachronisms. For some armours the cost will be less moderate than for others.

[Malcolm ap Gwilim]

I'm remembering a picture of a fighter with a kettle helm, red gambeson and elbow length gloves. I cannot remember where I saw this picture but it rings clear in my mind. I know that I would have to probably add some chest, shoulder and vambraces to this idea. If anyone could place this piece in time and space I would be grateful.

Thank you!

[Konstantin the Red]

That sounds like Roak -- his harness is early to mid fourteenth, around a red coat of plates and a kettlehat, gold Chaos arrows on his breast. Try any of the "kits" threads.

In that era his harness would have been found anywhere in western Europe and much of eastern Europe also, not petering out until you were in the Russias and their distinctive, old-school pointy conicals that look somehow middle eastern or like Orthodox church spires plus haburgeon harness.

[veltez]

To any wanting to be an apprentice, take these words to heart. From one beginner to another, the guy has a point.



http://youtu.be/1QMbn6d7cSk

[BastionWolff]

Contact Sir Andy Ward at wardmetal he started doing fluted top center point helmets and he might be able to point you in the right direction and then build it for you.