The Armour Archive

I realize this is a sensitive subject, but...

Is it realistic for an armourer with reasonable skills to make 90 to 100K a year or more? By that I mean net after the cost of normal materials and supplies used in the production of armour, not gross. And this is assuming one already has a shop stocked with the tools of the trade.

By reasonable skills I mean capable of making armour suitable for the SCA and for living history groups. Not necessarily museum level reproductions or restoration work.

It seems more and more that even good armourers are indicating finding work at the high end and mid range work is not terribly profitable due to competition including overseas armourers working for less than a US armourer can afford to work for (Especially Indian knockoffs/mass production items competing at the low end).

Here on Long Island, if you are the sole provider for a family and you want to own a house, put kids through college and retire someday, a six figure plus income is mandatory due to escalating housing costs and property taxes for decent school districts going through the roof (where my Dad's house was, taxes are now 16 to 22K per year, many other good areas here are at least 7K a year or more).

No I dont think that is realistic. I know Stonekeep on the lowend ( no disrespect) lost 10k one year. I dont think most of the middle guys make that much. Not even the highest end people are rolling in money. Asking about how much someone makes is a little taboo. So I dont think your going to get a real answer as to just how much people make other then not that much

There have been many threads on this topic. From what I have read (and my numbers come up about the same) $30,000 net would be VERY hard to make.

If you think it is reasonable to make $100k a year I'd love to see what numbers you have put together. I suppose it could be done, but I don't think you would be able to allow time to sleep that year =P

Unless you're into the really high end armour with a special market and a name for yourself I can't see it happening. Think about how many 200 dollar helmets, 15o dollar gauntlets and 65 dollar spaulders you're going to have to make in a week to make that kind of money.

Unlikely,
Demand is too low and what little there is is demand for cost effective prices. Ultimitly the modern world no longer respects the skills of the artisan or manual laborer. Those people who are good with their hands are better off becoming plummers or electricians or auto-mechanics. In these jobs there is higher demand and while everyone wants cost effective products there are few people who quibble about price when raw-sewage is flowing backwards into the house through the first floor toilet...

If you really like armor and want to make a carrier out of it you might consider a museaum science degree and get into maintenance and rehabilitation of armor. Who knows you might even work at the Met one day cataloging all the unsee pieces in storage.

Alternatly you can become an importer of cheep indo/pak made armor products and retail them for a profit. But you could do that for just about any business.

Ultimately is is a question of the supply demand curve. If it were a business that could be made profitible on a large scale we would have suits of armor with "Ford" and "Chevy" embossed on them. Armor construction will remain primarily a hobbist enterprise unless there is a large scale shift in demand.

Just my thoughts,
Sean

100k a year as an SCA armourer?

As a groop of armourers, it is possible but then it has to be devided between 3 to 6 people. Other wise it has to be a well organized out sourcing and dristribution system and then you might be able to make even more.

The high-end armourers don't even come close to making that, as a general rule.

If you charge $20,000-$30,000 for a complete, museum quality harness, and it takes you six months to make it, you might *possibly* make $40,000 - $60,000 a year. GROSS. People wince at paying $12,000, which is chump change for 6 months work. The sad fact is that there is a limited market able or willing to pay that amount of money. It's more like a complete harness if you are lucky, and maybe a half-dozen helmets in the $1,000-$2,000 range, and small projects for less money. How many people complain at more than $300-$500 for a helmet? How many are willing to pay that much? People don't take into consideration when pricing armour exactly how long it takes them to make something. While you can bang out some simple welded hats in a short time, asking for complex projects to be completed in a similar time for slightly more money is completely unrealistic.

I am willing to pay a reasonable price for a raised hat, or a museum quality individual piece of armour, over $1000, in the $2000 range, give or take for a raised hat, and similar funds for individual bits, but I am not well off. It takes me months and months to save that kind of money, and I am only able to fund one or two projects a year - if I funnel ALL of my entertainment money toward such projects. So I have the will, and eventually save the money, but nobody can possibly make a living off of me (unless I won the proverbial lottery, in which case I would literally retain one or two of the best armourers services for a year at a time, giving them about 4-6 months worth of projects for a sum they could make a basic living off of, multiple tens of thousands of dollars, but well under the sum you mention, so they could then pick and chose the other projects they would like to take on in a 6 month span, that will increase their skills and knowledge. Think of it like an armourers scholarship project - that is one of my dreams, and they would have some breathing room financially so they would not be pressed or stressed to meet their financial obligations. Sort of be like an old-fashioned patron for them - not their sole customer, but a patron who assures them a certain income a year, in exchange for a certain core of expected work a year, but not taking their full attention for the year by a long shot.

chef, that is a beautiful plan.

I have learned over the years that the number one factor is location and operating methodology. I tried JRA as a business in 1991-1992 and quickly maxed out at about 8500 a year but there was no internet to speak of yet, and the cost of living in Newport News was low (I has a 12 room victorian in Huntington Heights for $30K, property taxes $375 a year). One of the factors for me moving to California in 1996, is that real estate was still reasonable and helms that I had to fight to move for $150 in Atlantia, in CA people stampeded you to buy if the price was anywhere near $400. I went on-line in 1998, and my big mistake was writing off e-bay as a commerce source until Jan 01, a year after I lost the VA house. Ebay immediately became a cash cow for me, and had I started a year earlier, I would have definitely moved back to VA and sold on ebay, hell I was locked into a 20 year mortgage at $250 a month. One big issue I had in VA as an armourer was SCA politics, I was constantly told that "to sell armour in Atlantia is a waste of time, the populace only buys from Laurels", or King X went to college with armourer Y, and he's sending all his business to him. I saw this did not occur in Caid, so I moved. I learned very quickly 2 important concepts in armouring out here: He who has the inventory makes the rules and assembly line is the way to go. Currently, I make a master list in May and update in November, cut it all out and store the parts. With this out of the way, you now have your material bught and paid for and this put you past the part that I find causes "armourer's block". Last week was my first full time week in the shop, working 35 hours I build from already cut parts: 8 gorgets ($440), 4 pair spaulders ($260), 3 pair articulated legs($495), 3 pair articulated arms ($435), 2 wood boxes, and cut the parts for another 5. A set of both stainless knees and elbows, finished off 1 greek helm and roughed out another. It was all done assembly line fashion. Worse, I have some ADD issues going right now so on Wednesday, I was literally working 15 different work tasks, but i ended up rotating these tasks every 15-20 minuets, but they all got done. They ideas is the production wise, I have long since proven that one can construct $60-75K in armour in the mid range, no problem. As for indian knock off's, they have been a non-issue, I am saddened that one local armourer in San Diego (not Jeff H.) is doing everything he can to introduce and shove Mexican made armour goods into the SoCal region. As for distribution, you have to have an e-commerce avenue to sell. The factor if SCA politics needs to be bypassed in order to get a fair viewing of your product. The example I give is that from 1997-1999 I was a merchant at Great western with plenty of stock, yet a local armouring laurel did more sales than I without stock, due to percieved(and well earned) reputation, and I never broke $1000 at GW. I skipped Great Western in 2000, but in 2001, I flooded ebay 2 weeks prior to GW, and sold $1500 worth of armour to Orange County residents alone, several armour merchants tracked me down to have a "long talk" with me at GW that year, the most amusing comment was "you are going to destroy SCA merchanting as we know it" hey, welcome to the new world . I have been an ebay power seller 3 times this year for hand made armour from my shop, in May and September, ebay named me to their 1000 most visited sellers in all of ebay list (geez, they actually track this). To answer your question, $30K in Long Island is possible but rough, $45K in California, no problem. as you are finding, though CA has arep for outrageous hosing prices, the northeast has a rep for outrageous property taxes, the MIPI is the same either place anyway, so you might as well live here. One day, I should offer a class on the evolution and history of the JRA production and distribution methodology, I know this sounds so vain, but damn, I got a good system.

Eric

I was not limiting the market to the SCA, just including it as a market that does exist for armour that is less than museum quality but where there are buyers for low to mid range pieces (sport armour to living history level stuff that actually gets worn).

Part of the reason I ask this is that it seems that some truly gifted armourers cannot find a way to do this for a living and have a reasonable chance of providing for a family, unless they choose to live in a very inexpensive part of the country. So we may start losing armourers capable of doing high end work. And if armourers can't make money starting out doing low to midrange work, no one will acquire the skills to replace the high end armourers as they quit/retire/die off, etc.

It does not bode well for the future in terms of having good, reliable long term sources for decent armour for those willing to spend the money. At least not in the US. And if they are not in the US, then it is very hard for anyone to get to them for fittings/adjustments.

Long Island has become so insanely expensive that if you are young and have a family of 4, you need an average income of 120K to 140K to afford a decent house and put kids through college and have any shot of retiring and being able to live here. It isn't just Long Island though, housing prices are going up in a lot of places in leaps and bounds, LI has been averaging 8 to 20 percent increases in housing prices for years now. It is crazy, especially with high taxes.

Richard

Tom Justus is the man to talk to about this topic.

I and Truehearth are in Nova Scotia, Canada, and the cost of living is fairly low. I bought my house (very tiny, but still a house) for $45 K Canadian, and Carlo of Truehearth just bought a BIG house (4x the size of mine) in the boonies of Nova Scotia for $50 K. As 90% of my (and his) business is webpage sales, location is not that important. I think it's more than possible to make a modest living making armor. I'm part-time, and my sales last year were $22 K gross. Full time I should be able to sell about $40 to 50 K per year (Canadian, exchange rate is currently about 85%). I think $90-100 K US is somewhat unrealistic, unless you have several people working for you, you resell imports, or you have a niche that nobody else can match.

ever wonder why for most of us this is a hobby?

im shure there are a few.
but not many that make that kind of money.
most of use use armour to help suplament our income.

I think this year i made about 300 over expences.

witch means new books and a few tools

Only a few people can find the 'high end' market. Even really great armorers don't know where to find that customer base (non-SCA/LH).

Is there much of a "high-end" market when your potential customer can go and buy a composite Maximillian suit, or a mid 16th century suit (actual antique armour) for concievably 30,000-40,000 Euros? Look at that German collection that has been sold in lots for the past 4 years through Hermans Historica - you see very few reproduction pieces, like a Billy Radford hundskull bascinet, and they are being sold for between $3000-$4000 Euros.

I think the "high end" market mostly lies in peoples imaginations. Very few collectors need very few representative early pieces to sustain one. There is (or was) more likely a larger market for repair and conservation to existing composite armours in so-so shape.,

Im not going to say what i make a year, its my buisness, but i have to turn away buisness every day. 100.000, no way, but a good income, sure it can be done, how many armoureres have as good an understanding about buisness as they do armour? I have had some amazing armourers tell me they cant make any money, imho its because theya re producing the wrong items for the wrong market.
I also dont see why people assume that its worse in the sca market, no group uses more armour, and uses it up faster than the sca.
Part of the reason i prefer making sca armour is because its actually doing what it was intended to do, protect, in most LH groups the armour is there for presentation and portrayal, while in the sca the armour is there to keep your teeth in your head and your ribs in one piece.
LH guys dont bust my balls, i do sca and LH so im not talking out my ass.
You could spend 60plus hrs raising a bascinet and charge 1800, or you could spend 12/16 hrs dishing and welding one for sca use and get 7/800.00
Its a matter of understanding your market, and presenting the proper variety of products to cater to that market.
People say you cant make 30,000 as an sca armourer, thats incorrect.
Now i could make more money as a plain old welder, but i would not get the satisfaction i do as an armourer, although id have a hell of alot less stress
Its about finding a niche, and a product to go with it, and providing a quality product and a good buying experience for the customer.
I have customers who own several of my helmets, yet they only have one head, so something about the product, and the buying experience made them want more, thats what its all about.
Making a decent helmet is only about 20% of whats needed , customer service, branding etc etc all play a huge part.
Honestly there is alot to it, and im not going to go into great detail as its a buisness and successful formulas are not generally shared.

White Mountain Armoury wrote:Im not going to say what i make a year, its my buisness, but i have to turn away buisness every day. 100.000, no way, but a good income, sure it can be done, how many armoureres have as good an understanding about buisness as they do armour? I have had some amazing armourers tell me they cant make any money, imho its because theya re producing the wrong items for the wrong market.
I also dont see why people assume that its worse in the sca market, no group uses more armour, and uses it up faster than the sca.
Part of the reason i prefer making sca armour is because its actually doing what it was intended to do, protect, in most LH groups the armour is there for presentation and portrayal, while in the sca the armour is there to keep your teeth in your head and your ribs in one piece.
LH guys dont bust my balls, i do sca and LH so im not talking out my ass.
You could spend 60plus hrs raising a bascinet and charge 1800, or you could spend 12/16 hrs dishing and welding one for sca use and get 7/800.00
Its a matter of understanding your market, and presenting the proper variety of products to cater to that market.
People say you cant make 30,000 as an sca armourer, thats incorrect.
Now i could make more money as a plain old welder, but i would not get the satisfaction i do as an armourer, although id have a hell of alot less stress
Its about finding a niche, and a product to go with it, and providing a quality product and a good buying experience for the customer.
I have customers who own several of my helmets, yet they only have one head, so something about the product, and the buying experience made them want more, thats what its all about.
Making a decent helmet is only about 20% of whats needed , customer service, branding etc etc all play a huge part.
Honestly there is alot to it, and im not going to go into great detail as its a buisness and successful formulas are not generally shared.

To tail onto what Adam has said--

I'm not an armorer, but I am a semi-professional artist. "Semi-professional", as in I am represented in galleries, and the sharklike sales staffs therein occasionally sell one of my pictures, but I do not make my living from my paintings. Adam has the material issue of the whole "can I make a living as an artisan/artist" debate down pat, which may explain why he is one of the elite few of armorers who actually makes his living at his craft.

In order make your living at art, you have to be:

1. Good enough at what you do that you are immediately differenced as "professional" from those who are not. There are some hobbyists who produce professional-grade work, but are not professionals. They are rare birds. Most hobbyist work looks like hobbyist work. This means you have to be your own most savage critic-- and the most relentless critic to boot. You have to know that line that separates the pros from the "nots", and be exquisitely aware exactly where you own work falls on that scale.

2. Know who your buying public is, and why they are buying your work. This means that you have to possess a coldly realistic view of to whom your work is going, and how much it can bring in. This requires a somewhat schizophrenic mindset for most artists. You have to be brutally rational and creatively intuitive in the same body. Not easy at all.

3. You have to give buyers a reason to become collectors of your work. This ties in with the next bullet, but the bottom line is that whatever you're doing has to be appealing enough that a large segment of those who actually buy want your type of work, and that they want to have this itch scratched by YOUR work. One piece can't be enough. They MUST have several examples. This can be done by reclusive iconoclasts who produce works of pure genius, but for mere mortals like most of us, it means really good work by people who can connect to other folks via personality, shared interests, proactive customer service, etc. In fine art, it's why your artist's bio brochure and being on hand at shows and other gallery events is so important for your sales. People are buying a little piece of you, when they buy one of your paintings.

4. You have to think of your work like a business owner does. Most artists and artisans are crappy business people. Hell, most people in general aren't too good at this at first. As in point #2, most artist-types have a difficult time being brilliantly creative artists and coldly ruthless business owners simultaneously. Daydreams of eventual success unsupported by the facts only hinder art-business owners in realizing their dreams. Getting there takes a very different mindset than the one that led you into artistic endeavors in the first place. Business decisions will affect all aspects of your life: Problem-- Overhead costs in my current area are cutting too deeply into my profits. Solution-- Move the business to a more expense-friendly area.

M.

Bottom line: if you live in the United States, have a good head for business, and are willing to take risks, then yes, you can be an armorer and make $100k or more a year.

You're just not going to make your money selling armor.

We are all taught from an early age that your income is directly tied to what you do for 8-10 hours a day. At least in the US, that is true only because 99% of the population collectively agrees it is.

If making 100k a year is your goal, and you want to be an armorer, figure out how to do it. Don't spend 10 hours a day making a crap wage and 2 hours a day doing what you want. Reverse the trend. Spend 2 hours a day making an absolute killing at something, and 10 hours doing the thing you love that pays beans.

The only reason I don't follow this advice is that I really like what I do, and every time it sucks they throw more money at me. Otherwise I'd be outa here like last year.

Willing Pell wrote:Unless you're into the really high end armour with a special market and a name for yourself I can't see it happening. Think about how many 200 dollar helmets, 15o dollar gauntlets and 65 dollar spaulders you're going to have to make in a week to make that kind of money.

9.6, 12.8, and 29.6, respectively. And that's assuming that the amounts you specify are net, not gross.

Saint-Server, that was well put, and spot on.
I can talk about this stuff all day, but am tangential and abstract so writing about it is difficult.
You want to be successful, you need to establish your self as a "brand" Having someone like the look of your work is good, having someone know about your good reputation is good, but these are not enough, you need people to want your work because its what others want and buy as well.
Its why so many choose a brand over a generic even when the final product is the same.
Making a quality product at an affordabel price is not enough, most buyers dont work that way. There is always more to it than that. You need to make yourself the "go to"buisness for a certain product, and understand that product and what other products directly relate to it
Alot of folks think great diversity in a product line will earn them more money, but thats not always the case. Chances are you will do better putting those efforts into what you are alrady known for.
Now if you make a kick ass bascinet yet need another product you could decide to build a kickass sallet and likely sell a fair amount, but you would be better off making a kickass globose breastplate instead as it better relates to the bascinet that you are known for, in some time you will realize thatt you need another product, you could decide to make a spangen helm and try and grab some of that "dark ages" cash, and likely get some of it, but instead you choose to make kickass mitten gaunts that look like 14th cent hourglass gaunts, and in time you become the go to person for 14th cent SCA gear. So when some new fighter says i need armour, i like the 14th cent, people say you need to go to "X Armoury" because they are the place to go for 14th cent gear. In time a reputation is built and you begin to sew up that market.
People keep talking about and worring about Indian Armour, i dont feel its an issue, we are a "custom" society, like burger king, "have it your way".
With imports you can only have it their way, If a person wants a brass occular with copper rivits i can supply it, if the customer has a big nose or short neck i can address it, the importer can not, even if upon recieving measurements you find that the customers neck is average and so is their nose it makes no difference because the customer feels their specific needs are being addressed special just for them.
People assume i cant build a sallet because they dont see them on my site, when the real reason is they dont fit my buisness profile.
If i sell you a bascinet chances are i can sell you a globose breast and a pourpoint and a pair of hourglass gaunts, less likely to sell you a bascinet and then a pair of bazubands.
Do something, do it well, become known for it and then add to it by making items that apply.

chef de chambre wrote:Is there much of a "high-end" market when your potential customer can go and buy a composite Maximillian suit, or a mid 16th century suit (actual antique armour) for concievably 30,000-40,000 Euros? Look at that German collection that has been sold in lots for the past 4 years through Hermans Historica - you see very few reproduction pieces, like a Billy Radford hundskull bascinet, and they are being sold for between $3000-$4000 Euros.

I think the "high end" market mostly lies in peoples imaginations. Very few collectors need very few representative early pieces to sustain one. There is (or was) more likely a larger market for repair and conservation to existing composite armours in so-so shape.,

I see what you are saying. Good points. But if you want a suit pre 1500 they are few and far between in terms of being complete and available for purchase, even in a composite harness. Much less one that will fit you if you want to actually wear it. But maybe there just isn't a market for those where the clients have the money and are willing to pay significant bucs on a regular basis. On the other hand, my SCA squire paid about 10K for a Mac suit and would pay 20K for a new one if Mac had the time to make it. Frankly I don't know if even at that pricing one can make much money given the amount of time it took and the fact it was spring steel.

It drives me a little crazy that people like James Gillaspie and Mac have tremendous talents and experience and may not be making enough money to want to keep doing this for a living or for others to emulate them.

I am intrigued by the idea of a collection of talented armourers working together so they can be profitable. Interesting idea. I too have fantasies of winning lotto (the recent 300 million plus PowerBall comes to mind), building an armoury and hiring armourers at a good wage for the rest of their lives. I guess the answer is for more WMA and SCA types to play lotto. Sigh.

Yes it is a tough business.
I spent 22 months full time armouring.
I now have returned to the real world.
My wall and yard art sold better than my armour.
I am a crappy business man.

Hal

Saint-Sever wrote:

2. Know who your buying public is, and why they are buying your work. This means that you have to possess a coldly realistic view of to whom your work is going, and how much it can bring in. This requires a somewhat schizophrenic mindset for most artists. You have to be brutally rational and creatively intuitive in the same body. Not easy at all.

And is unfortunately on the mark. It looks like I will have to leave off making SCA armour although I have a good portion of my niche. The market is harder but there is more money in reproduction for Japan.

Too many people in the SCA are like me. They refuse to pay someone else to do something that they feel they can do themselves.....even when it would be much more cost effective to pay someone else. ( Example someone making 150k a year refusing to pay for an oil change when they can do it themself).

I DO see one niche in the SCA that would be profitable, but that truly would be business not armouring. I need to get the money up for grad school. Maybe I should give up on my art and go for the money.

And that niche would be???;-)

I got it figured (thanks to schreibers post) on how I could make a living on armouring. I needs to find me a good woman that has a degree and some tallent in buisness and a whip to crack over my back to keep me producing (well maybee other purposes after work).

Truthfully I feel for me I would have a difficult time making it as profesionall armourer. I take the artist side of the buisness and as such would loose some interest and motivation at doing what the market wants not what i want. Not that that side of the buisness cann't make it these days but it takes time to establish ones name for the higher end stuff and just how long can my joints take all the hours of hammering? I'm not really into the modern meathodes of producing armour, and like many professional sports your body can only take so much abuse before its time to retire from the field. That is the one fact that has kept me from persuing armouring full time. With my skills at that level they are now I have figured I could make $35k to $45k a year, but how long can my body take it, and at least for me I have my kids to provide for and insurance cost alone these days are prohibative.

Brian

The problem I see is that a lot of armorers don't appraoch this as work. Mass production is the only way to go, and the more tooling that you can use to speed up production, the better.

I remember seeing a picture of an old German blacksmith's shop. In it, were dies and stakes of every possible shape-most of which were made to produce a very specific shape when hot metal was put under it and beaten.

Sure, it took time to do that tooling. But, once completed, that tooling lasted for generations, and every time a smith needed to make a leaf, flower or other piece, he just reached for that die and smacked out a piece of art.

Armoring is no different. With proper dies, and maybe a motorized smacking device to help with big pieces, production could be speeded up considerably. For simple pieces like cops, poleyns, globose breast plates, etc., some dies and a large press would spit out pieces that, while maybe not completely finished, would save a lot of hand work while roughing out the piece.

Also, medieval armorers tended to specialize on one thing (like leg harnesses, helmets, etc.) and only conglomerations of armorers put out complete harnesses. Trying to diversify your wares, and then spend time selling them, is a dillution of manpower. It would be better to get a group of a few armorers, each specializing in one or two things. Then, sell together and split overhead costs. Why should everybody sit across from each other at wars, selling armor instead of having fun? Agree to what each of you produce, group it together, and take turns minding the shop. A big ass shop, at that, with loads of wares to attract people.

Websites and ebay could be handled the same way. Traffic begets traffic. Have on your staff a person whose sole job is to answer email, ship armor and track shipments. Oh, and crack the whip if necessary.

There are many talents necessary to run a business. It is rare for one person to possess both management and creative skills.

Right on, Trevor.

I spent about 10 months or so making armour for a living right after college, while trying to find a job.

I got lucky. A local pro had just got a new day job, and so wasn't producing much. As well, there was another talented artist (alas, not businessman) working in the shop at the same time. I got a good deal -- complete run of the shop, don't undercut the regular prices, pay the owner a third of regular price for materials and expenses.

In total, I ended up making about $10 an hour when working on commissioned stuff, which was considerably more than I would have made flipping burgers. Also, the owner said that there were a couple months where I'd actually paid off enough to cover the extra mortgage and utilities on the shop.

My niche was munitions stuff -- nicer that the novice could make, at a price anyone could afford. The other artist in the shop taught me a whole lot about beating metal, but couldn't understand the business side. At the time, I sold articulating elbows for $25 a pair, and they worked. He shows me a bunch of stuff to make higher quality, but it took more time. His elbows were $75, and worht it. But, he could sell maybe a pair a month, and I could unload a dozen. Guess who made more money? That's the business side. I got so I could make a pair, start to finish, in an hour and a half, less if I was making 2 or 3 at once. It would've taken me 3 or 4 to do the best I could have done.

The reas question that armourer's don't answer is this:

Are you an artist with patrons? or

Are you a craftsman with customers?

Patrons will put up with a lot of crap that customers won't.

Few things Id like to add to an excellant discussion.

One of the issues I have discussed with more notable armourers revolves around the need for armourers to do several key things.

Diversify. Dont put all those eggs in one basket. Think liberally with your skills....can you do more than just armour?

Uplift, dont backstab. People, by nature are competitive. By complimenting your competition, not detracting from them, you effectively show your audience or client that you are in a comfortable position to almost be philanthropic about your knowledge and willingess to help others out. Speaks volumes about sucess.

Share the love. A friend of mine once told me something an older armourer told him. "There is always enough work to go around" Translation: you will never be able to handle all the work so share the work or orders (via reference) with other armourers who you think are qualified. Just as doctors send referals, so too should artists. Send a bottle of wine to those that send you referals as you would naturally send one to them.

Education: Learn as much as you can about your craft and more importantly share this knowledge willingly and publically with your clients. A well educated client knows the time and cost of quality armour, just like quality art....even though that seems subjective.

Importation vs. Local Artisans: Some are aware that I butted heads with one of Museum R's chair persons few months ago. One of their chairpersons went on a tirade about the fact that MR is not an importer despite the fact that they are now owned by (ie, bought out) by the Indian company Windlass Steelcrafts ! While I wont go into specifics about the extraordinary falsehoods they claim about accuracy of their goods (heave) and their "hand forged" products (puke) which most of you gentlemen realize, I was and am very angry when companies import so much at the expense of US industries.....in this case the micro-niche being armourers. I have nothing against foreign peoples, cultures or races.....in fact I celebrate many of those differences and agknowlege their contributions......but when companies ingore their own people (or national "industry" like armourers) for the sake of profit just so a wall hanger can be made "cheaply" (and often inaccurately) I draw the line.

My main point draws upon one I made above...education of your client. Explain to them the difference between wall hangers and sca work and living history work. Show them details that you can achieve or the differences in your work vs. imported junk.

For it is the widespread availability of this imported wall hanger junk that I believe is one of the huge problems we as armourers face today. How can anyone compete against products that are false described as "accurate" (somewhat subjective true but lets call a spade a spade, a two piece welded helmet with truly forged brim and comb is more accurate than an 8 piece tack welded version.

Local. Most successful artist need a cosmopolitian locale tempered by the subburbs. I used to live in Northern Virginia. Whew. When 300,000 dollar homes in 1990 are now selling for ONE MILLION....I got the clue, I couldnt afford to live there on my income.

Pool your Income. Armourers should also consider investment strategies and a willingless to sacrifice certain creature comforts for the sake of a communal living approach. With a little equity from a communal home-shop purchase, those that could not otherwise support themselves on armouring or similar metalcrafts can. And they can incorporate themselves for the sake of loan applications *which is always better than buying via self employed....heh, trust me.

The Big picture. Its a hard life at times. If its not metal shards in the eye, its sore arms, calluses, and tendonitis. Expand you talents to include armouring among your arsenal of tricks.

Patrons will put up with a lot of crap that customers won't.


man, thats a good way to put it Raito!

I have dealt with clients who have said, and I quote

"I dont want it 4 months from now, I dont want any waitlist....I want it tommorrow......I want it yesterday, I want it on my desk with a pink ribbon and an explanation and I of why it took you four months to make up explanations as to why my armor wasnt shipped the minute I sent my money. If it takes you 4 months to make and ship something...youre in the wrong business pal ! "

Da-um Ergo, educate the client and abide by strict and REALISTIC policies, ie, account for three times your realistic construction time to account for the unexpected and aholes like that client I dealt with.

Over teh last two months I've been steadily making a fair amount of wooden shield blanks as I found that this was a niche that didn't seem to be filled. My wife is already quizzing me on what it would take to expand into aluminum.

I started this up in order to get some acsh together to get my own kit (and now a kit for my wife) together that looks good. I could get a hurry-up kit together, but I would rather start out looking good and then get my skills better from there. I have INsaneIrish to thank for that.

I'd love to quit my day job and work for myself, but I know two things about myself: I have not got the skills to run my own business as a sole source of income and medical coverage is EXPENSIVE!. Maybe in the future, but not at this point.

Durasteel Corporation wrote:One of their chairpersons went on a tirade about the fact that MR is not an importer despite the fact that they are now owned by (ie, bought out) by the Indian company Windlass Steelcrafts!

Is anything in their catalog made HERE?

I am new to this forum and to making armor. To date what I have made is for my own use and though I have skills, I still lack the specific routine skills to produce quick work.

While beating and bending and welding and forming I have given this topic of price vs. value a lot of consideration. My conclusion, you really have to love this work because you will never make real serious money at it.

Case in point just for me:

I wanted a helm, and since I have the personal philosophy of “…if he did it, so can I!â€Â

What people want to spend depends on your customer base, my helmets are from about 400.00 to over 1000.00 while many wont pay that amount many will, my backlog and the amount of people i turn away attest to that.
But there is more to it than the price of the helmet alone, reliabilty,, a custoemr following, branding etc etc all enter into it. Having lower cost items to suppliment the higher cost items.
A fine living can be made from this trade but it requires more than just the ability to shape a piece of steel

I fully well realize there is more to armor than helms and hammering.

My time has shown me that while I can do it, the skill and talent by those who do it as a trade/profession is to be admired, and I do with a greater understanding.

The topic asked about neting 100K / year as an armor and I was just illustrating the difficulty I see in achieving that based not on speculation but on actual dirty hands myself.

I love this new found craft, always loved metal work and fabrication and would love to earn a living at it, but the reality is, I cannot match my living in what I do by doing so. Understandably, it is a matter of lifestyle choices and were I single, might alter the lifestyle and apprentise with a Master and enjoy the smell and sounds of work.

Like I said, no one can truely admire the skill of a fine craftsmans work until they realize just how much skill they have. My Helms off to you who posess such skill for I now understand it better than had I not used my own hands at it.

Just because I can do what others do, doesnt mean I should.

Daniel “the briefâ€Â

I hope i did not come accross as negative, just trying to be factual. It also took me some time to figgure out the proper formula, although i do agree 100k is a lofty goal