The Armour Archive

hello i'am new on this forum.
Sorry for my english but I'am French and we are not good for the other languages

I need help because i'am searching all informations and historical photos on a visored barbutte. Th e only photo i have is :
[img]http://www.wolfeargent.com/firestryker/barbute_visor.jpg[/img]

But I search a photo who could proved this is an barbutte. A photo with the visor up.

Thanks a lot

I just want to inform you that this is a bascinet "bacinetto" in italian as the note under the picture.
Well in reality to me is an hybrid form, the top is tipical of the bascinet, while the skirt is very tipical of barbute.
Other than this, i'm sad but it's the first time i see it.. i would like too to have other pictures.
Oh welcome onboard.

possible reproductions of the above extant examples:

http://www.bestarmour.com/barbuta2.htm

I know it's wrote Bacinet but in reality someone who saw it in reality sead to me that there is a nasal with placement with eyes like the Corinthienne Barbutte.
But unfortunetly my friend have no photos.
I know best armour too but I am like St Thomas. I would like to see the real photo.

Hello.

I am afraid this piece is a one- off from the Musee de l´Armée in Paris. I seem to remember that the curators are debating whether the more or less contemporary visor has been added in the 19th century, rendering this piece a forgery.
The visor reminds me of some types of Grand bascinet, and the helmet underneath it actually has all attributes of a "corinthian" barbuta. I am pretty sure this piece has been "restored" to make up a "knightly helmet" from medieval pieces.

Regards

Ivo

The pieces do not belong together at the very least. They are currently displayed separately. There is a fair bit of discussion about the authenticity of one or both parts.

Indeed that helmet is a, if not the, mother of hybrids.

Im not sure what to make of it. Ugly or useful. Combines the glancing skull of a basinet with neck protection of a barbute.

A true

'grand basabute' ... 'barsinet' ... 'barbinet'

I have also been informed that that's a "marriage" of different parts.
Bienvenue a l'Archive!!

Thanks for reply but nobody have a photo of the two seperated pieces ?

Excuse me but I forgot to present me :

I'm a french professionnal medieval armourer. I worked on armour about five years but i'm professionnal only 1 year. The armour archive was the first inernet site on armour that I known.
I have more and more works In France with about , now, 10 month of delay.
I sell my work on all europe and principaly in France , belgium and Switzerland.
I make all the pieces that the customer wants and principaly historical pieces based on iconography. Somes pieces are made for the free fight, like SCA but fighting with metal swords.
So I say hello at all armourer around the word, and specialy to Brian Price with his book that helped me in my work.

M. Réchignac, bienvenu. Est-ce que nous avons des autres examplaires de barbutes à point comme cela?

And for those of us whose French isn't yet good enough to get us into the 2ème REP, the same question: have we any other examples of barbutes this pointed? Are they Burgundian? Looks a bit like the extravagant Burgundian style.

Konstantin the Red wrote:And for those of us whose French isn't yet good enough to get us into the 2ème REP...

Why did you tell me that ?
You tried to be enroled in French Legion ? to the "2nd Regiment Etranger Parachutiste" based in Corsica ?

To the best of my knowledge, the helmet is quite genuine, although the visor does not belong to it. The visor may have been altered from a previous form. it may or may not be 'genuine' but altered, and not belong to the helmet.

I have never seen anyone substantiate the rumour perpetuated here that the skull of the helmet is not genuine, or indeed provide so much as a scrap of evidence for the assertion.

The helmet has been known for quite some time, it was likely altered in the 19th century by the addition of a visor, but that does not make the helmet itself any less genuine. It is 15th century, from the alleged armourers mark on it, and not 14th. As for it being a 'forgery' by the addition of something extraneous to it originallly - then, must we discard the St. Marys chapel sallet, because of the plume holder that had been added in the 16th century? Is every composite armour in the world a forgery? Does the addition of any missing lames to fingers or faulds mean that the whole is now a forgery?

If thats the case, then we have a dearth of any armour not falling into the catagory.

Chef:
We have disagreed on this helmet for quite a while. It may be genuine though I do not trust it. I have some information that I cannot share, which makes me suspicious of it. I am particularly suspicious of the mark. At the very least I believe it has been reworked substantially and that the mark may have been added at a later time. I really like this helmet but I stuggle with what it is or what it was.

Whatever the truth may be, here's a shot of it without the visor. It's not that unusual in form; only the nasal and the form of the cheek defences around the eyes are atypical.

Here's a detail from a sketch by Pisanello, c. 1430.

Oooh! Oooh! I know!

It's a Gondorian helm. Mystery solved.

Click here to see what it looked like before the etching and embossing were worn off. I think the connection is obvious.

bienvenue a l'archive!!!!!

These hybrid helmets seem to have been popular in Italy for a very long time. A VERY long time.

Here's a photo of the side, showing better the contested nasal. My apologies for its quality.

It's reminscent of the Chalcis helmet in Athens no. B7, of which I don't have a photo, but do have a copy of Boccia's report with a line drawing. The Athens helmet appears to have a faceted skull and a hinged right cheekpiece (missing) but the overall silhouette, the y-shaped face and the curly little nasal all appear to be similar.

Klaus

I agree about the Chalcis helmet on the skull shape. I visited
Athens last summer and the skull has elements that are similar to several there. The nasal is a bit strange though. Perhaps it is damaged in some way?