The Armour Archive

Does anyone have recomendations as to what temperature 1050 should be tempered at for use as armour?

Thanks in advance

Dave

I know that when Mac does it he takes pieces to bright orange, then holds them out of the quench for just a split second (almost literally) until the just barely begin to be magnetic before pushing them *rapidly* into the quench. We tested the magnetic property by holding a magnet on a stick close to the piece and waiting until it started to pull toward the piece a tiny bit. Shoving the whole piece into the quench all at once is very important for even hardening. For larger pieces we used a stick to make sure it all went in at once. With very small pieces (e.g., coudes) we didn't wait for the magnet, we just stuck it straight into the quench.

For the temper I think he took the pieces up to just grey; not nearly as hot.

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Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

When tempering a steel, it should not change colour. If it gets red hot, the microstructure that has been carefully formed by the quench relaxes, and you'll have to do over. Quench temperature can vary, but I've always heard "workshop red", ie a red that can be just seen in dim light conditions.

Oh, and make sure you use an oil, or possible brine, quench solution, or you could well ruin the piece.

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Aww, come on...a little pain never hurt anyone...

[This message has been edited by Darkman (edited 06-18-2002).]

A brine quench is very fast and very severe; warping your piece (if it has any interior stresses) is likeliest with this quench. Plain water is a fast quench, not quite so fast or severe as brine. Oil quench is slower and gentler than water. Some steels are specifically alloyed and formulated to quench well in oil: O-1 and the like. There are some alloy steels that will harden cooling in air, such as A-2. So you wouldn't do the normal method of stress-relieving -- heat to red and cool in air -- with this steel.

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"The Minstrel Boy to the war is gone..."

I claim no responsability for this - I just stored the link.

http://www.eskimo.com/~cwn/hardening.html

This is a description of one set of instructions for tempering 1050 armour.

Wade

Thanks for the replys everyone. I've always used oil as a quenchant for 10-series steels (for knives and tools) and have had know trouble getting full hardness. I agree with Konstantin that a brine quench would be unnecessarily violent.

Hugh, your description of Mac's technique is especially interesting. It sounds like he is quenching at just below critical temperature- in effect doing a form of slack quench. What quenchant is he using? From your description of running the colour up to "just grey" it sounds like he is drawing the pieces to a full spring temper (@575 degrees F) do the colours you observe pass through bright and dark blue before reaching the "grey" stage?

Wade, Thanks for posting that link. The fellow there is doing a nice job of documenting his experiments and I hope he continues.

Cet,

You're certainly right about Craig/Sinric's experimentation and documentation - he's been responsible for many of us on this board trying out high carbon steel work.

Olaf

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Olaf Skalle Krossar
Chieftain
Armourworks
(formerly The Armory of Westlig Stjerne)
www.armourworks.com
thefolks@armourworks.com

Mineral oil, transmission fluid and any other thin oil work nice for hardening. I'm guessing the temp needs to be about 1475 F for full hardness. I've never drawn to spring tempers so I couldn't comment on colors, but I would start at 500 F and check the flexibility on a small piece. Use your scraps to test your treatment. This way you'll even have examples for each "springiness".

I'll be getting some 1050 here shortly and will do a series of tests and post a page on my site with pics and results.

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Krag von Berghen
KragAxe Armoury

Member's Pics

"your description of Mac's technique is especially interesting. It sounds like he is quenching at just below critical temperature- in effect doing a form of slack quench. What quenchant is he using?"

I've gotten the whole skinny on heat treating from Mac during one of our many conversations on stuff, and I have a set of three Milanese (one is a bridle gauntlet), made of 1050 from Mac. The gauntlets are hard enough to scratch my mild saddle steels when I mount and tough enough to take a full blow with a steel sword and only scuff.

Mac uses a water quench, but adds an additive to the water which buffers the harshness and reduces the vaporizing of the water. He gave me the name of it, but I don't have it handy. He told me this around a year ago, so he may be doing it differently now, but he was still using it last I knew.

I am working on some 1050 armour for myself right now, and plan to get some of the additive for my water quench when I'm ready for heat treating. I don't like the smoke and flames of oil that I get when I heat treat weapons and really don't relish the idea of the amount of smoke and flame quenching armour would generate.

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Cheers,

Jeffrey Hedgecock,
Armourer
Maitre of The Red Company-1471
http://www.historicenterprises.com

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Cet:
Hugh, your description of Mac's technique is especially interesting. It sounds like he is quenching at just below critical temperature- in effect doing a form of slack quench. What quenchant is he using? From your description of running the colour up to "just grey" it sounds like he is drawing the pieces to a full spring temper (@575 degrees F) do the colours you observe pass through bright and dark blue before reaching the "grey" stage?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cet, I'm truly sorry but I just don't know the answers to your questions. I wasn't really trying to learn the process, I was just helping Mac do some work. I do know that when they came out the first time, the pieces were literally glowing orange, and when they came out after being tempered they were grey. I didn't actually see the intermediate colors.

Also, Mac is using some kind of a polymer for quenching. I don't know what it's called, but it's definitely not oil because it doesn't smoke or burn (which is th reason he said he doesn't want to do oil quenching). It's not brine, either, but it feels like oily water. It smells nasty, but he says it would actually be safe to drink (not that you'd want to, and he's only quoting the sales rep here, so you may believe as much of that as you want). When the pieces cool off they're covered with a slimy layer of liquid that has to be washed off. I hope that helps.

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Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

Thanks in any case Hugh. This polymer quechant sounds interesting, I'll have to try and track it down. Though I must admit I've always liked the drama of plunging hot steel into oil it does have it's drawbacks.

Thanks again.

Dave

Jeff, Thanks for the input. As I think about it I'm sure I've seen refrences to such additives in some publications dealing with bladesmithing. I'm sure your right that the amount of smoke and fire resulting from quenching something like a cuisses or breastplate would be a nuissance far greater thanwhat I'm used to from blades and small tools.

I've made lots of feast gear out of 1050 (scrap from the Lazy-Boy factory) and used my oven in the kitchen to temper and heat-color. The color....I believe it's called Vermillion...is the most beautiful blueish-purple, and it happens at around 475 degrees F. Much to my horror they wound up being used as throwing knives at an event and only one out of the 20 or so forks & knives broke. It seems reasonable to conclude, based on my experience with the material and looking at MANY heat-colored armours, that this degree of temper is both durable and attractive. Are there any period examples of heat-colored armor that is verifiably spring steel ? The Dresden Book shows some that looks like it, but I don't know.

I've found out that 40-45 Rc is tough enough to keep its form, but not so hard it has become brittle. I'll look up the numbers tomorrow at work for quench and temper.