The Armour Archive

Hey folks,

I've decided what steel pieces I need to get for my SCA kit, but I just don't know exactly what I'll want it all to look like. So, some help would be nice!

I'm going for a German look, at around 1375. I'm getting "splinted" greaves, cuisses, vambraces and upper cannons from Dan at House of the Wolf, so I just need all of the stuff that fits around those things. Here's the list, from bottom, up!

-Sabatons
-Poleyns
-Demi-Gauntlets
-Couters
-Spaulders
-Gorget

And then the most important part, the breast plate with faulds!

Main question: Would I have some kind of back protection coming from the cuirass? Or would it just be the front with the faulds, at this time? I'm going for a "standard" outfit, so I don't want to incorperate rarities in, if I can avoid it. How many faulds would I have on the cuirass?

Now, I know the gorget will be ahistoric, some, so I'm just going to get a simple one to hide under my aventail/coif. What about couter and poleyn shape? I'm expecting I'd want wings on the outside edges of them, correct? What kind of shape was popular at this time? I've got some images of Effigies, but can't seem to find too many. Images of the actual pieces would be nice.

I think I've got the spaulders and demi-gauntlets worked out, as well.

My main inspiration for the overall silouette of the outfit are effigies dated to the 1370's, including that of The Black Prince from over in England. The main difference is that I'm incorperating an exposed breastplate/faulds into my outfit, and in turn using my splinted armor to show off the color. Rather vice-versa situation to the standard look at the time (my only main deviance).

Thanks for your help!

-Gregory-

Do you have either Osprey's "German Medieval Armies 1300-1500" or their "English Medieval Knight 1300-1400"? If you can access either of these, I recommend that you do something like the CoP w/ exposed breastplate that appears on the German Knight c.1370 in GMA and the similar one depicted on the very last (c.1390) color plate in EMK. I'm afraid I can't recall which pictorial sources these paintings are based on.

If I were to do a harness from that period, this is what I'd shoot for. Very spiffy looking, and nearly ignored in modern re-enactment.

pm sent.

Enjoy!

Josh Warren wrote:If you can access either of these, I recommend that you do something like the CoP w/ exposed breastplate that appears on the German Knight c.1370 in GMA and the similar one depicted on the very last (c.1390) color plate in EMK. I'm afraid I can't recall which pictorial sources these paintings are based on.

The German one is based on a carving in a building in Bamberg, but I can't remember which building off the top of my head. I have the Bildindex photo of it bookmarked on my home computer, but I'm at work right now...

What your describing sounds like the whats on the eggigy of Burkhar von Steinburg from the Roemer Museum. A oicture of it can be found in pare 18 of Ospreys "German Medieval Armies 1200-1500"

This also is the picture I'm going from on my current project.

I'm useing:

-wax hardened leather legs and arms with 20ga. SS splints
-stud sabatons
-simple wingless poleyns and couters with rondels(floating)
-hour glass gauntlets
-Churburg chest
-Klapp visor Bascinet

Nice undertaking , 14th century kits ROCK.
Make sure you know exactly what you before you start handing over money or making stuff.

The main thing id go for is consistence and work to keep the little differences that make your kit truly German

14th century German armour imo has pointy fans like the aces of spade (on its side), and the same on your knees.
There's a Russian site around that shows that things like.... the last lame in and arm harness, the shape of the elbow and so on, in a German suit are very different to the Italian suit's.
So when your studying up on what you want, look for the littlest changes.

I think there are no 14th century backplates, so id stay away from that idea.

Our site has lots of manuscripts for the 14th century.

http://www.knighthospitaller.com/resour ... /index.htm

and

These pages hold's allot of 14th century effigies

http://www.lanser.dk/bil/effi2.htm

A globose breast plate with a centre ridge and the lamed fingers
http://www.lanser.dk/pic/effi/151_1380_ ... elsass.jpg

Covered breast and back ? with hinged shoulders.
http://www.lanser.dk/pic/effi/112_1375_prague_c.jpg


Images from 1360's to the 1415 a small progression is seen.

from the 1360's silver alter of St john...
This is riveted / decorated leather / cloth covers for a standard BP with or with out folds.

Not corazina's IMO

[img]http://www.knighthospitaller.com/database/images/BP/stj1.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.knighthospitaller.com/database/images/BP/stj2.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.knighthospitaller.com/database/images/BP/stj4.jpg[/img]

This is odd, the only non-globose, centre ridged bp i have seen in the 14th.
It also has over lapping (down) folds...

[img]http://www.knighthospitaller.com/database/images/BP/stj5.jpg[/img]

A back shot of a rider.
No back plate and you can see the strap config.
Also note the folds.
[img]http://www.knighthospitaller.com/database/images/BP/stj6.jpg[/img]

A pic of ed for a look at the body fit.
http://www.knighthospitaller.com/databa ... /BP/ed.jpg

1401, a lot later i know but the tech is still the same.

[img]http://www.knighthospitaller.com/database/images/BP/1401.jpg[/img]

1401 - 1405, this one is odd.
It looks like mail, padded armour/jupon then BPand folds.
The only reason i say padded armour is the artist left out the mail wiggle on the upper part of the clothing.

[img]http://www.knighthospitaller.com/database/images/BP/1405.jpg[/img]

1415 same as above
[img]http://www.knighthospitaller.com/database/images/BP/1415.jpg[/img]


Real ones from 1380 - 1404
Cloth covered with folds..
http://www.knighthospitaller.com/databa ... bp1400.jpg

the burg suit
http://www.knighthospitaller.com/databa ... BP/cbp.jpg
http://www.knighthospitaller.com/databa ... BP/cbs.jpg

later
http://www.knighthospitaller.com/databa ... /bpcbs.jpg


Kits for the last 1/4 of the 14th
Real...
http://www.knighthospitaller.com/databa ... P/kit1.jpg

repo's
http://www.knighthospitaller.com/databa ... P/kit2.jpg
http://www.knighthospitaller.com/databa ... P/kit3.jpg


Lastly in the 50's (?) have a look at what they have here, while earlier there is sabatons, greaves and so on.

http://image.ox.ac.uk/images/bodleian/ms.bodl.264/

Anyway lots for you to look at / think about.

Kit

Ps I'm not sure how wrong or right my opinions are but it sounds go

Hey Josh,

I have both of those books. They're about the only two I have on the era, though! I'm planning on picking up "Medieval Heraldry" Italian Medieval armies 1300-1500" and a couple of others, after I get some books on Gladiators I've been waiting on.

I do like the knight shown as figure 1, plate D in German Medieval Armies, Josh. But, I don't know if I know of any references for the armor, myself. I'm thinking that by the 1370's, breastplates were more common.

The last plate in English Medieval Kinght 1300-1400, Josh, is based on the effigy of Sir Hugh Calvaley. Here's a neat miniature of him, painted by Luca Olivieri in Italy. I don't know what company did the piece, but I know he has lots of Pegaso models, although their site doesn't show Mister Calvaley, here!



If I'm not mistaken, his effigy is dated to 1389, so it's a bit late. Although, it is virtually the same in arms/armor as Edward the Black Prince's effigy, so the style remained similar in England during this period, at least.

Ivo, that file is huge! I just started downloading it. Hopefully I'll be able to see it before the night is up!

Madmailler, according to the book, the image of Burkhard on page 18 of GME 1300-1500 is a little late for my own impression, but it has been an inspiration! I've already got my order with Dan for my splinted arms and legs, although I didn't have the money for the encased greaves, yet. I'll have to wait on those.

Thanks for the help, guys!

-Gregory-

Make sure you know exactly what you before you start handing over money or making stuff.

Thanks for the links. Most of the parts are already made and are currenlty spralled arcoss my floor. I just need to knock it all together. Just two more exames to write and I'll finally be able to get it all done. Nothing like beating the snot out of poor defenseless metal to celebrate the holidays.

Wow, Kit! Thanks for all of the awesome images and explanations! Those all help a bunch!

I'd like to note that I won't be wearing any mail with this kit, with the exception of perhaps an aventail/coif. I'm also debating between a klappvisor, globose-visored bascinet or a great helm, still. I'm leaning towards having a great helm.

Cheers!

-Gregory-

Hay, your welcome.

Why not the mail ? Mail is a big part of what makes the 14th century kit so cool and historical if you didn't have mail, id say you didn't have plate. (IMO)
The other cool thing is unlike the 13th century is you only need short suit, add to that the other stuff you have and it will be rocking.

With helms, Id *strongly* suggest you get a bas for your head, everyone that was anyone had a bas in the time.

If you get a bas, i think you should get a klapt but that visor style maybe to late.. (please correct me if im wrong)


Great helms where there but i think only on horse back.
Something that look's rocking is a visored suggerloaf. This will give you the SCA protection with out messing up the helm with stupid bars.

Have a look at rick on the left, this i think it's kinda what your describing and i think the suggerloaf really make's the kit.

http://www.knighthospitaller.com/databa ... ricket.jpg


As Homer Simpson would say...



" Gregory, i am Mayor Giuliani you must buy a bas !!! you must buy a bas!! "

Hey, no mail for me, simply because of my budget! Also, it weighs enough that being without it will help. This is for SCA use, after all!

I suppose a good klappvisor bascinet will suffice. But, I do love great helms. No one in heavy combat has a horse in the SCA, so there are plenty of folks who have to make due with infantry fighting in cavalry kits. I wouldn't mind having to do so, myself!

Cheers!

-Gregory-

(p.s. Ivo, AWESOME stuff! Thank you!)

I am not sure back plates at the end of the 14th century would be inappropriate but 1375 is hard to say it woud be the norm though. I would look at European Armour c. 1066- c. 1700 claude blair covers this topic very well. They have appeared in medieval inventories starting in the last decades of the 14th century. Picture 258 b Churburg has a composite suit from c. 1370-1400 most likely italian but churburg is a meeting point of german/italian armour with a fairly full 14th century harness including back plate. If you are going for the norm you may want to avoid it for 1375 and before but look into it and see what you want to do. Using illustrations is tricky for the backplate. First most pictures from late 14th show people in a type of surcoat over their torso, second very few pictures angle it so you are looking at the figures back, even if they are not directly facing you they are positioned to look diagnal and back away from you making it hard to tell what was common. I was under the assumption that by 1380 splinted limb protection also took a nose dive in popularity for the knightly class as it had done earlier in other countries.
Good luck with your harness. You may want to choose a specific effigy and work of that. Good luck,
RPM

Gregory, and don't forget Walter von Hohenklingen and the lentner. He was obit 1386 @ Sempach, so he may be a bit of a stretch, but Herr Walter wasn't especially young when he got killed unless I very much misunderstand things.

Exposed globose, lightly keeled breast worn over the lentner. No taces/fauld on Walter, but taces wouldn't be outrageously out of the period of interest. Four-piece knees too; one lame over, kneecop, two lames under.

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/ufarm/hd_ufarm.htm
Another view, more sideways. Good look at that 4-pc. knee.
http://www.grenadier.f9.co.uk/soldiers/impknight.htm
Some helpful-looking contemporaneous background, with illos.
http://www.geocities.com/kamillavh/0202.html

What if you were to reproduce the torso defense on the St. George Statue at Hradschin castle in Prague? As far as I know, nobody's done that yet, and I judge it to be within your skills based on what I've seen you produce before. Plus, it includes substantial back defense and just looks totally badass.

Incidentally, it was not the large figure in the last plate of "English Medieval Knight 1300-1400" that I wanted to draw your attention to, but the smaller illustration of a green CoP with external breastplate which accompanies it.

Gregory J. Liebau wrote:Madmailler, according to the book, the image of Burkhard on page 18 of GME 1300-1500 is a little late for my own impression, but it has been an inspiration!

Again, I'm at work and don't have my books handy, but is the date listed for Burchard von Steinberg in GME 1300-1500 one of the infamous typos I've heard about? IIRC, it should be 1379.

I don't take the dates on effigies seriously. They'er ballpark figures at best.
They were carved by massions with an eye for aesthetics not functionality. I don't recommend anyone take them at face value.
There insperation for me to do some serious research on the styles.

I agree with you about the dates. But I disagree about the artists not making literal interpretations of the armor... I really can't argue for it, as I don't have lots of experience doing so. I know many people take effigies at their face value, and I'm sure someone will pipe up who does, and knows how to explain why.

-Gregory-

Well I do agree that you have to be careful with effigies but especially in England it was a fairly established trade and they have a number of stylistic qualities that tell what era they were made in. Just because the date does not match the date the knight died does not mean that is the date of the effigy's creationor undatable. Some people have spent alot of time,some even their entire careers working on dating effigies. I suggest getting some books on brasses. William Lack, John Coales and Malcomb Norris all have a number of books on the subject. But why pick on effigies, do we know how they have dated armour and illuminations? This is way before the made in china sticker starts appearing on stuff and publication dates in manuscripts. SO if you don't take ball park dates serious you'd have to discount a large group of history right off the batt and be left with just a handful of items from inventories and wills, which are at times limited as well. I consider effigies to be very useful and yes style is something that does come into play but remember that the buyer was a knight and if he did not like it, the mason lost a sale, it did have to be real enough for a said. One of the large effigy center in the medieval era was here in York and some have been able to find parts on the effigies to determine their date within a few decades for the most part. Not to bad when you understand historical dating of things huge expanse of space and time,
RPM

http://helmschmiedt.narod.ru/Czechia02.jpg

There. It took me a couple of days to track down a good photo of the back of the St. George statue in Prague. IIRC, this statue dates to the very period you're looking for, Greg. I think it would be very spiffy indeed if you were to reproduce this.

Hey guys,

Lotsa' awesome information, comin' in! Josh, Konstantine, thanks for the last few images, there! I really like Hohenklingen! At the moment, I don't have the money to put together a "really" accurate get-up, especially as I can't afford to get mail now, and would need to size my arm armor differently if I did, but can't do that as I need to wear it without the mail, too!

So, I'm going to make a kit up based on a relatively "generic" 1370-1375 German knight, and see where that takes me! The last part I'm debating is a padded or mail aventail... I'll see about it when I get to the globose klappvisor bascinet (which is going to be my last purchase).

Cheers, and thanks a lot!

-Gregory-

(p.s. Eventually, maybe in a few years, I plan on doing a very, very detailed kit based on a single effigy dated to around the end of the 14th century from Germany, most likely.)

http://home.armourarchive.org/members/s ... age032.jpg

another of a visored sugarloaf

Is there any other infor on that torso defense on the St. George statue?
I'm looking to upgrade to something more interesting than a Wisby, and the back tickled my interest.

I'm digging around for images of the front, better close-ups, etc. The front of the armour is dominated by a large single piece over the upper chest. It's pretty cool.

Visored helmets of that nature appear quite regularly in the early 14th century. If you can find the queen mary psalter manuscript it has a few in its illuminations. There is a book called MAster of the psalter and page 66 has a visored sugarloaf. The thing is that most people, including Blair believe the visored bascinet was an off shot of the visored helm. I have a feeling that the line between visored bascinet and visored sugarloaf non-existant in its beginnings. I am not sure that in 1375 you would actually want a visored sugarloaf over a visored bascinet. There are many different bascient tops and visors that were used so you have a large number of possibilities though by 1375 they were fewer than before 1350.
RPM

Hello.

Detailed drawings of the Prague St George can be found in Eduard Wagner´s book. Now dirt cheap from Dover Publications (I bought an original copy 3 months before the Dover one came out. Grrr.)

Regards

Ivo

Gregory J. Liebau wrote:Madmailler, according to the book, the image of Burkhard on page 18 of GME 1300-1500 is a little late for my own impression, but it has been an inspiration!

I was moving some books last night and ran across this one, so I checked out the pic. The date for the v.Steinberg effigy on p.18 is given as 1397, but it should read 1379. Just FYI...

Gregory J. Liebau wrote:Hey Josh,

I have both of those books. They're about the only two I have on the era, though! I'm planning on picking up "Medieval Heraldry" Italian Medieval armies 1300-1500" and a couple of others, after I get some books on Gladiators I've been waiting on.

I do like the knight shown as figure 1, plate D in German Medieval Armies, Josh. But, I don't know if I know of any references for the armor, myself. I'm thinking that by the 1370's, breastplates were more common.

The last plate in English Medieval Kinght 1300-1400, Josh, is based on the effigy of Sir Hugh Calvaley. Here's a neat miniature of him, painted by Luca Olivieri in Italy. I don't know what company did the piece, but I know he has lots of Pegaso models, although their site doesn't show Mister Calvaley, here!



If I'm not mistaken, his effigy is dated to 1389, so it's a bit late. Although, it is virtually the same in arms/armor as Edward the Black Prince's effigy, so the style remained similar in England during this period, at least.

Ivo, that file is huge! I just started downloading it. Hopefully I'll be able to see it before the night is up!

Madmailler, according to the book, the image of Burkhard on page 18 of GME 1300-1500 is a little late for my own impression, but it has been an inspiration! I've already got my order with Dan for my splinted arms and legs, although I didn't have the money for the encased greaves, yet. I'll have to wait on those.

Thanks for the help, guys!

-Gregory-

Keep in mind that even though Hugh's armour and Edward's armour are VERY similar, Edward was a prince and afforded the best of the time. It makes logical sense that 13 years later, Hugh is wearing something Edward was in 1376.

That Prague St George Stateue makes the backarmor look like a coat of plates consisting of fauld hoops running the entire length of the back, is that what it is?

I think so.

That kicks ass. Is the front the same or is it attached to a globose? I am so gonna make that once I finish these fingered gauntlets.

The front has one big (globose?) piece over the ribcage, and, IIRC, is horizontal lames over the abdomen. I wish I could find a good photo...