I love Dark Victory! Really!

Post by JT » Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:33 am

adric wrote:Oh

Yup. That capability (originator could delete the entire thread) was lost when we went from crappy UBB to good phpBB. Unfortunately, while phpBB has a lot of great features, and doesn't crap out nearly as often, a limitation is that only moderators and editors can delete a posting if there are no replies that come after it.

Magmaforge · Post by **Magmaforge** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:44 am

Dante della Luna wrote:blaming the fall of western civilization on Vitus.

Robert P. Norwalt · Post by **Robert P. Norwalt** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:45 am

First off,...Sean Garrison, is one of the most Chivalrous men EVER to grace the ranks of the KSCA. One of four I have ever considered for Squire-ship.

I don't believe He's got an agenda to push here, but he's a big boy, and can answer for himself.

I don't "like" the plastic stuff. It looks bad. It functions bad. It goes diametrically opposed to the supposed goal of the Society of "educating about the middle ages".
It is the main reason the general public think were a bunch of D&D, morons from Middle Earth.
It is why the academic fields, schools, colleges, etc,. think were full of sh*@. It's the one of the main issues that separates us widely form the LH medievalists, re-creationists', and probably the single most glaring eyesore at any war, or tourney. I've had three people that I can think of, right off the top of my bean, that I'd invited to an event, who left early or immediately, shaking their head, and laughing their ass off, in one case, because some "Duke" was wearing pickle barrel legs.

"But,...it gets newbies on the field"? Okay. It does. My first suit was a plastic/leather combo, and I got the taste of SCA combat, and loved it. I don't know that if I'd have been told, to use period materials it would have mattered at all, just taken more time and study to get on the field. I saw my first fighter practice and I was hooked. No rule or reg, or degree of authenticity would have kept me from this. Maybe getting people on the field quickly is a mistake?
DVA? Even way back then I didn't like the look of it. So I never bought any. I thought about a pair of his gaunts once, (or some other plastic guy) and decided there was no way to make them look right. In 15 years, since,. I got rid of that horrible "samurai" outfit, not one more square inch. I got buddies who do use his stuff, and don't share my philosophy and don't mind it. Most of them upgrade eventually, but mostly I think they get a kick out of hearing me rant about it. The ones who don't care at all about the historical lean, and are not intrenched into the historical aspect of the SCA? Those are the guys keeping the plastic thing alive. Sadly it's still a huge portion of the SCA membership, from the BoD, top Peerage on down. One little ant, preaching on a soap box, will never do much good.

I think the non-historical mindset of the SCA needs to be flushed down the toilet for good, but even so, -I don't need to attack the guy, and hurt his business on an open forum.
If some find day the Society as a whole banned plastic, or went with the no exposed plastic,..(Atlantia did this?) I'd feel sorry for the folks who can't afford better, or are not inclined to care, but I'd still be happy. Not a personal attack, just the way I feel. Now if DVA of some of the other plastic makers would cover the stuff from the get, (leather or canvas) I think that would hush most of this, but then he'd have to raise his prices, cuz it'd take twice as long to make his stuff?
Or if all the Royalty, Peers, and Officers got into an across the board-knowne-world-wide-campaign to force exposed plastic off the list, (not just Crown) again I'd be happy.

In the long run, (years not months) we as a Society would gain more respect from the general population. More honor and respect from the Academic Communities at large. Recruit a higher eshcelon of individual to truly educate the public in all ways historic, but especially the combat arena of the SCA.

MJBlazek · Post by **MJBlazek** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:51 am

Robert,

I Agree 100% with everything you just said.

I just feel that the previous topic, and this one, has turned its face away from the noble sun of enlightnement toward the black pit of hatred.

Or....
I think that all this has turned into is a lets piss all over DVA and anybody elese who makes or wear plastic armor.
Well growing up a farmboy I do know that, "Horse piss splatters."
Otherwise...
If all we ever do is piss over this guy all it will do is ruin our own experiences.

Robert P. Norwalt · Post by **Robert P. Norwalt** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:03 pm

Read through some of my old posts as Raibeart Lok De la Haye. I used to really try and bash my opinion over peoples heads. It just doesn't work that way. Let's do what works.

Maeryk · Post by **Maeryk** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:05 pm

I think that all this has turned into is a lets piss all over DVA and anybody elese who makes or wear plastic armor.

Umm.. welcome to the AA. That's uhh.. that's what they do here.

Maeryk

MJBlazek · Post by **MJBlazek** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:07 pm

Maeryk wrote:
I think that all this has turned into is a lets piss all over DVA and anybody elese who makes or wear plastic armor.

Umm.. welcome to the AA. That's uhh.. that's what they do here.

Maeryk

Yeah...thats sad.

Anton · Post by **Anton** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:08 pm

Does anyone have the link/pictures to the 14th cent. suit with the fabulously covered plastic? I believe the legs were covered and had rivits to simulate splints... I searched for it but no luck.

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:21 pm

For some it's plastic armor for others like me itÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s about the aesthetics of the armor. I think plastic is a fine material to keep the weight down on your armor, but it should well fitted and covered. For instance you could go to Alchemy Armory who makes fitted plastic and get the Pauldrons, Arms, and Torso or CoP for $300/$240 and wear a Charles VI or black prince cotte armor over it and you would look awesome. You could then get AlchemyÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s Greaves for $35 cut them up and rivet them to leather and make excellent German shinbalds. Round it out with padded cuisses with hidden plastic splints. You would look super spiff in this and besides the cloth for the cuisses and cotte the cost is only about $50 more than DV if you get the CoP.

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:23 pm

Anton wrote:Does anyone have the link/pictures to the 14th cent. suit with the fabulously covered plastic? I believe the legs were covered and had rivits to simulate splints... I searched for it but no luck.

I think you are talking about Sir Andrew Grey's armor, he is an Atlantian. His is a perfect example of what plastic armor can look like.

Tristan vom Schwarzwald · Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:34 pm

James B. wrote:
Anton wrote:Does anyone have the link/pictures to the 14th cent. suit with the fabulously covered plastic? I believe the legs were covered and had rivits to simulate splints... I searched for it but no luck.

I think you are talking about Sir Andrew Grey's armor, he is an Atlantian. His is a perfect example of what plastic armor can look like.

I miss seeing Sir Andrew has his lovely family...and his armour DOES rock....but I think he may have been referring to this:

http://globaleffects.com/C_pages/Rental ... intedh.JPG

Robert P. Norwalt · Post by **Robert P. Norwalt** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:38 pm

Jamie Blackrose has a nice unexposed rig. Ditto Gargoyle, John the Elder, Guichard of Sternfeld, and others.

Anton · Post by **Anton** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:43 pm

That's it, thanks!

Gabriel_Carduus · Post by **Gabriel_Carduus** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:30 pm

Robert P. Norwalt wrote: "But,...it gets newbies on the field"

I have seen this quote at many plastic armouries websites, and agree with it...to a point.

Plastic armor is cheap, granted, and yes, to a college kid like myself with little money to work with, it is a pretty sweet deal.

BUT, there is one thing to remember: I had the option of buying plastic when I was putting my kit together, but I did not. Instead, I put in the overtime at work, and took up a second job over the summer to pay for the metal, and could not be happier that I did.

I guess what I'm trying to say is this: in my case, the plastic was an option. But because I respected what the SCA stands for, I went the route of authenticity over functionality and cost-effictiveness.

Yes, It was alot of work and time. But, at least for me, by going the route of authenticity, I know that I am getting the maximum experience that I can out of this sport.

Feel free to flame me,

Shawn

Langston Clarke · Post by **Langston Clarke** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:34 pm

but I think he may have been referring to this:

http://globaleffects.com/C_pages/Rental ... intedh.JPG

THAT'S PLASTIC!?!?!?! :shock:

Thats better than most steel/leather kits I see.

Brennus · Post by **Brennus** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:46 pm

Let me ask a question? If I could build starter armor out of aluminum for a price less than Dark Victory and covering all the points his armor covers would this armor have a market? I know I could make quick aluminum suits cheaper and it would look alot better. If he is selling suits of his for 300 I know I could do as much for 250 and still make 100-150% profit.

Brennus · Post by **Brennus** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:47 pm

His armor is $230 opps I could still make it cheaper.

DAVID01 · Post by **DAVID01** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 3:14 pm

Brennus wrote:His armor is $230 opps I could still make it cheaper.

I'd like to see it, as I like Aluminum, I'm not being a smart ass here. I really do like it and if you could make all that he makes and covers AND make it look better for less, I'd be willing to get a set.

Brennus · Post by **Brennus** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 3:18 pm

As horrible an armorer as I am I don't think making it look better is a real issue.

DAVID01 · Post by **DAVID01** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 3:49 pm

Brennus wrote:As horrible an armorer as I am I don't think making it look better is a real issue.

So you need my measurements?

Brennus · Post by **Brennus** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 4:12 pm

let me get some pics up of what the stuff will look like before you decide anything.
I have made all the pieces in the past for what I would build and have pics somewhere.

DAVID01 · Post by **DAVID01** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 4:14 pm

Brennus · Post by **Brennus** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 5:29 pm

[img]http://home.armourarchive.org/members/brennus/cops.JPG[/img]

these type cops attached to vambraces and cuisse by leather - Articulations run the price up and they will work as well without them and look better than DVA's stuff

[img]http://home.armourarchive.org/members/brennus/half.jpg[/img]

half gaunts like this

A body harness I don't have a pic for right now basically a four piece wrap

spaulders these are a bit rough looking here but they are the type I make

[img]http://home.armourarchive.org/members/brennus/draypolish.jpg[/img]

and a gorget not sure what that will look like I have made alot of them and in alot of different ways.

I could do all that for $230

Thorbjorn · Post by **Thorbjorn** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 5:34 pm

I started off looking at DVA and after some soulsearching and several private mesage-based conversations with very excellent folks here, I passed on it. There are several folks (White Mountain, Ashcraft-Baker, etc) that make gear that is not out of the reach of folks starting out. I haven't gotten very far on my rig, but that's due to several outside factors.

I have no reason to detest plastic armor. I have seen modified pieces of DVA that look good and offer protection but they were restrapped with latigo.

I could go Old Skool and make carpet armor. That would be most cost effective. Instead I have set a timeframe of 8 months to get my gear together. Bought, traded for or made myself, I plan on having a starter set that I can be proud to see newer fighters of larger stature using in my Shire after I move on to better kit over the coming years.

Now to get moving on my stuff...

MJBlazek · Post by **MJBlazek** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 5:40 pm

Ive heard a lot of talk about "takign months/years to get the more historical kit"

Well, what if you just want to start fighting? What if you are putting all of you money into a great Soft kit, and yoru funds are too low to buy a great Hard kit. But you just want to start practicing and fighting?

Where do you turn then?

And what about those people who don't have the time to take up a second job or work overtime?

I am not sayign that DVA is a good thing. But just what do you do?

Cadugan Bolt-Catcher · Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:20 pm

Dark Victory Armory wrote:Bolt - So your vote for the first thing to replace is the elbow/knee joints? Hmmm... I would have thought it would be the shoulders as Thaddeus suggested. Is this really a "mass needed" issue or do you think that laced articulation is somehow non-effective? I've made a lot of armor over 7 years and with the exception of that one girl who didn't pad and got a bruise when her leg fell off (!) I haven't heard any trouble.

To answer your question, laced articulation *is* ineffective, it is little better than pop riviting with a half decent burr. and yes, it is a bit of a weight issue, as a propperly mounted elbow or knee cop made out of aluminum or steel will not flop around to the same degree.

lacing in articulation,in my opinion, is a hazard to the fighter using it and should only be approved on a case by case basis where superior construction can be proven.

in case you do not remember me, i was the well spoken and polite fellow who stopped by your shoppe at pennsic during war week (believe it was the second day of fighting) and spent about 20 minutes talking with you about prefered forming methods for a breastplate, it was a busy week, so i do not expect you to remember either. while i was too polite to comment on your wares then, i will do so now. the elbow and knee articulations (the knee in particular) are not designed as well as they could be, and are therefore hazardous to the fighter using it.
granted, most of your armour performs within specs, but it barely does that, and if you strive to be a better armourer, and more respected within the community, i would strive to design a better articulation system. to put it in perspective, my first set of knees, built in shop class in 3 classes (3 hours, 30 minutes) are still up and going, and they work fine, but i used proven construction methods (was even my first attempt at articulation) and made sure that they would withstand punishment.

to put in broader terms, i would rather fight every person in the Society, in a Pas style all in one go (it'd be fun until i couldn't move!), than let something like that knee articulation leave my shop.

and as for your comment about the 'one girl who didn't pad and got a bruise when her leg fell off (!)'
You have lost any respect i may have had for you.
if *ANY* fighter had gotten hurt because of a defect in my product design, my first reaction would be "What? Is she ok, is there anything i can do to help?" rather than demeaning the person in such a fashion. that *Young Lady* was one of *Your* customers, and whilst wearing *Your* armour she got hurt. At the very least you can do the decent human thing and express sympathy for the person in question.

in fact, if a customer of mine had gotten hurt in such a fashion, my thoughts would not be 'What did they do wrong' , but rather 'Is there something i could have done to prevent this?'

by the way, what you are doing here is really making poor business sense, as the membership here are likely those who are going to advise new fighters on what to get, and at this point, if i was in a position to advise any new fighter, i would tell them to steer clear based only upon the attitude you have displayed thus far.

Regards

Cadugan 'The Bolt-Catcher'

Broadway · Post by **Broadway** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:59 pm

I've made a lot of armor over 7 years and with the exception of that one girl who didn't pad and got a bruise when her leg fell off (!) I haven't heard any trouble.

Is that your take on the situation?

I'm curious.

Or are you still being toung in cheek?

Vitus von Atzinger · Post by **Vitus von Atzinger** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 7:02 pm

It
was
a
joke,
son.

A
joke.

I
like
plastic
armour
as
long
as
I
don't
see
it.

I
sometimes
wear
it!

You
just
don't
see
it.

It
was
a
joke.

Brian Belding · Post by **Brian Belding** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 7:40 pm

i'm not in SCA or anything but i think that to have plastic armour what looks like cuir boille would be very cool- from what i read they are similar materials...

its an idea

Rev. George · Post by **Rev. George** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 9:09 pm

Hey brennus Not to be off topic, but how much for a set of those knees/ elbows? pvt me and let me know... I might be interested.

-+G

Dark Victory Armory · Post by **Dark Victory Armory** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 9:47 pm

Dante della Luna wrote:
I've made a lot of armor over 7 years and with the exception of that one girl who didn't pad and got a bruise when her leg fell off (!) I haven't heard any trouble.

Is that your take on the situation? I'm curious. Or are you still being toung in cheek?

You know something that I don't? I'm more curious than you are bout this topic. I assume that people would have been clubbing me with accident reports for years if they had them. I don't think that they exist.

Dieterick
Dark Victory Armory
http://darkvictory.com

Tarquin Bjornsson · Post by **Tarquin Bjornsson** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 9:54 pm

Cadugan Bolt-Catcher wrote:Tarquin, in all fairness, have you examined a suit of Dark Victory armour?

this is not any form of attack on anybody, but i had a chance to review the design of articualtion (or lack thereof) on the knees and elbows that he was selling at pennsic, and as an armourer i was thoroughly unimpressed. they were, as the english might say 'cocking shite'

whilst the rest of this man's equipment seems to be in good order, the knees and elbows are an accident waiting to happen. , i could quite literally dish a cop and form lames and throw it together an articulation in under an hour (it'd look like crap, but it'd work) that would be a more relyable and safer method of protecting those areas.

while my armor is far from perfect, i would not sleep well at night having sold something like that to someone.

that said, after a re-design and thorough testing at society and kingdom levels, i would recommend it, but not until that point.

don't get me wrong, i fight in plastic breast and backplates, it works good for me, for now. but i would be hesitant to use plastic near any joints, and i would never use it in vital areas (ie gorgette) where you need a bit of mass to help the armour settle right and protect.

the worst feeling you can get while fighting (other than getting cupped with a mass weapon) is knowing you hurt a fellow figher.

well, that's my 0.02.

that still did not open the door for what Vitus did.

Dark Victory Armory · Thu Jan 05, 2006 10:03 pm

Brennus wrote:I could do all that for $230

Nice parts kit Brennus.

I wish I could offer something right now as an alternative kit which could be as pretty. Eventually the complex curved poly parts would end up around $105 for the pieces you have offered. Glue and covering straightforward.

Everyone mentions my set at $230 but forgets the big canvas duffel bag, and leather arming belt. Where are they in this calculation. I sell those for $30 combined. Does that mean that the aluminum parts kit only costs $200 then to match? That a special price for David or an everyday price?

Dieterick
Dark Victory Armory
http://www.DarkVictory.com

Cadugan Bolt-Catcher · Thu Jan 05, 2006 10:10 pm

perhaps, perhaps not, better to be discussed here than in 10 or so other subsidiary threads that all have the same end.

moreover i find that having intelegent discussion on the subject, and actually pointing out problems that we have with the design of the armour could be beneficial rather than just saying "i hate DVA because i don't like plastic".

while no one is correct all the time, i'd much rather talk about it here in an open discussion rather than see five or more threads all stating why they have particular hatred of this armour.

and quite honestly. i think that DVA has proven that he does not feel badly that someone got hurt wearing his product, and he has no problem putting out a product that could potentially hurt someone. Tarquin, would *you* put out a product with the potential to hurt someone because of an easily correctable design flaw? i could not do that in good concience.