Hermann Historica -again
Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 10:29 am
Thanks for the heads up. I have been watching it too.
RPM
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Hermann Historica -again
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=72005
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Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 2:52 pm
Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 3:11 pm
If authentic, that piece belongs in a museum. I don't think there are many surviving examples of that.
Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 12:29 am
from the site info it has the pictrues and ifo on the dig it was found in. sounds fairly good to me, though if one were good they could fabricate anything I suppose. We will see if it ends up in a museum.
RPM
RPM
Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 8:46 pm
Its real. I know professionals who've handled it and taken metalurgical samples. Its the real deal. Now the question is will a museum be willing to pony up the bucks to get it or willit fall into private hands. I vote for the MET. All in favor?
Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 8:53 pm
If the Met will get off it's ass and get an Arms and armour curator
Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 9:22 pm
Murdock wrote:If the Met will get off it's ass and get an Arms and armour curator
They have three, at least.
Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 9:25 pm
The Met has more than they need.
I vote for somewhere it would be displayed.
Philly? They are closer to my place anyway.
Talbot. So the authentication/material checks out? cool.
They weren't very specific on some of the details... I would sort of have
expected someone to have done a quickie publish of a find like this and for them to have referenced it.
We will see how it goes. Too much for me.
Wade
I vote for somewhere it would be displayed.
Philly? They are closer to my place anyway.
Talbot. So the authentication/material checks out? cool.
They weren't very specific on some of the details... I would sort of have
expected someone to have done a quickie publish of a find like this and for them to have referenced it.
We will see how it goes. Too much for me.
Wade
Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 10:23 pm
Philly may be nicer but they do not have the bucks. (I don't think) If the Met wants it they probably have the resources.wcallen wrote:The Met has more than they need.
I vote for somewhere it would be displayed.
Philly? They are closer to my place anyway.
Talbot. So the authentication/material checks out? cool.
They weren't very specific on some of the details... I would sort of have
expected someone to have done a quickie publish of a find like this and for them to have referenced it.
We will see how it goes. Too much for me.
Wade
Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 10:54 pm
heh, was just thinking today about what I should put with the jack chains I saw on here awhile ago. Guess thats my next project.
Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:21 am
I vote for the Legermuseum in Delft 
. And otherwise the Bayerisches Armeemuseum or some such.
But they probably do not have the money.
. And otherwise the Bayerisches Armeemuseum or some such.
But they probably do not have the money.
Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:30 pm
My actual vote is any public museum!
Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:39 pm
Doug,
I agree. I fear if it goes private it will disappear for another 20-30 years, maybe 40 with how science is going with life expectancy....
RPM
I agree. I fear if it goes private it will disappear for another 20-30 years, maybe 40 with how science is going with life expectancy....
RPM
Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:58 pm
Yeap, I second that. Well, not any, but any public museum that can take good care of the piece and make sure that it is on public display frequently enough. (I think Talbot implied that it goes without saying.) Also a good monograph, an article or nay other detailed publication about the piece, written by someone competent would be a great thing to have.
BTW, a quick look through The Armour from The Battle of Wisby, showed some half a dozen of effigies with similar CoPs, and the one from Walter von Bopfingen (+1359, Bopfingen church, Wurtember) seems most similar to this one - shape of breastplate, number of chains... etc, but the lower plates are apparently somewhat different. A thorough study of the piece would probably give us much better results than a couple of photos taken through a glass box.
BTW, a quick look through The Armour from The Battle of Wisby, showed some half a dozen of effigies with similar CoPs, and the one from Walter von Bopfingen (+1359, Bopfingen church, Wurtember) seems most similar to this one - shape of breastplate, number of chains... etc, but the lower plates are apparently somewhat different. A thorough study of the piece would probably give us much better results than a couple of photos taken through a glass box.
Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 3:17 pm
I was just talking with Mac and he pointed out something on this piece I had not taken stock of. The chains are very short to have their toggles. Also there are four chains. Now both of theses could have explanations, but they are out of the ordinary as far as period illustrations seem to suggest. I also feel the placement of rivets on some of the plates seem suspect. At the very least indicate that they do not belong where they are placed on the mock-up.
The swivels are also funny. I can’t put my finger on it, but something seems odd.
The swivels are also funny. I can’t put my finger on it, but something seems odd.
Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2007 3:40 pm
Hello.
I had the opportunity to press my nose flat on the glass case in the museum at Straubing, Bavaria when this piece was part of a special exhibition some time in late 2006.
First off, this piece has been dug up by an amateur, so the way they are displayed is, say, questionable, the authenticity of the piece as such is not!
There has beenno proper dig, so all that can be said as to the small plates is that they formd the rest of the defence apart from the single piece breast.
The one piece upper breast has the rivet holes where they belong, the surviving rivets show some "shank" indicating that the plates used to be riveted into some cover of fabric and/or leather. What makes the rivets look odd and irregular is the fact that the rivets have been heavily peened and the thin peened heads are more or less deteriorated. The positions of the rivets are perfectly symmentrical and well placed.
I have no idea what has been done to the chains and toggles, but i feel the pieces have been mocked up to make the elements look more complete, in a, say, rather victorian kind of fashion.
The swivel hooks attached to vervelles which are rivetted to the upper breast on small iron rosettes of which only two survive, but there are holes for another two vervelles. The two chains on the right chest have been attached to the latter by means of wire.
And as to a publication...there seems to be one in the making, schduled for 2008, at least that´s what I have been told when I spoke to the public servant in charge.
I had the opportunity to press my nose flat on the glass case in the museum at Straubing, Bavaria when this piece was part of a special exhibition some time in late 2006.
First off, this piece has been dug up by an amateur, so the way they are displayed is, say, questionable, the authenticity of the piece as such is not!
There has beenno proper dig, so all that can be said as to the small plates is that they formd the rest of the defence apart from the single piece breast.
The one piece upper breast has the rivet holes where they belong, the surviving rivets show some "shank" indicating that the plates used to be riveted into some cover of fabric and/or leather. What makes the rivets look odd and irregular is the fact that the rivets have been heavily peened and the thin peened heads are more or less deteriorated. The positions of the rivets are perfectly symmentrical and well placed.
I have no idea what has been done to the chains and toggles, but i feel the pieces have been mocked up to make the elements look more complete, in a, say, rather victorian kind of fashion.
The swivel hooks attached to vervelles which are rivetted to the upper breast on small iron rosettes of which only two survive, but there are holes for another two vervelles. The two chains on the right chest have been attached to the latter by means of wire.
And as to a publication...there seems to be one in the making, schduled for 2008, at least that´s what I have been told when I spoke to the public servant in charge.
Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:21 am
Gaston,
I have never liked the chains anyways but there seem to be a good number of german effigies with 3-4 chains. Not sure who would want that many leases but I assume from Ivo's post two might be shortened. I guess helmet, shield, dagger and sword chains? THe shorter perhaps for the helmet and shield?
I had some examples of the 4 chained effigies but I cannot find them so far. I will look around when I have some time.
I think you maybe right of the arraingment but who knows how much is missing even? It could have been much more substancial from the way the existing peices have deteriorated so much. The top one seems the best preserved and even it has some places where it has corroded heavily.
I have spoken to some people who are interested in the auction. Quite a few people seem to think it is real in the museum world from the info they have recieved to be interested in it. I keep hoping someone I know gets it to a good museum... we will see.
I think it looks pretty good myself. I found a reference to a selection of possible armour bits here (examined by Mann quite a bit back) where I am and went down and found what I think is the impression of fabric coverings on some but one very clearly the weft and warp are appearant. Cannot figure out the layout of the pieces as there are a few of them and all fairly similar in shape and dimensions. Two of the pieces are clearly from a COP on is the top bit and had the neck roll and the right shape but when I have some time I will go and try looking them over again. I am sure there are many more bits of COP out there waiting to be seen. Cannot wait!
RPM
I have never liked the chains anyways but there seem to be a good number of german effigies with 3-4 chains. Not sure who would want that many leases but I assume from Ivo's post two might be shortened. I guess helmet, shield, dagger and sword chains? THe shorter perhaps for the helmet and shield?
I had some examples of the 4 chained effigies but I cannot find them so far. I will look around when I have some time.
I think you maybe right of the arraingment but who knows how much is missing even? It could have been much more substancial from the way the existing peices have deteriorated so much. The top one seems the best preserved and even it has some places where it has corroded heavily.
I have spoken to some people who are interested in the auction. Quite a few people seem to think it is real in the museum world from the info they have recieved to be interested in it. I keep hoping someone I know gets it to a good museum... we will see.
I think it looks pretty good myself. I found a reference to a selection of possible armour bits here (examined by Mann quite a bit back) where I am and went down and found what I think is the impression of fabric coverings on some but one very clearly the weft and warp are appearant. Cannot figure out the layout of the pieces as there are a few of them and all fairly similar in shape and dimensions. Two of the pieces are clearly from a COP on is the top bit and had the neck roll and the right shape but when I have some time I will go and try looking them over again. I am sure there are many more bits of COP out there waiting to be seen. Cannot wait!
RPM