The Armour Archive

Maeryk wrote:How may here would have (or would now, if you are starting out) spend 400$ on a helm, knowing you won't necessarily have to upgrade it for 5 years or more, rather than spending 150-200 on something that will get beaten up and need to be replaced within 3 years?

Honestly as a noob, longevity was not my concern. It was whether or not I was going to stay hooked. I did not want to sink a ton of money into something that I was not sure I would stick with.

NOW, that I am hooked for life, I would have no problem spending $400 on a solid helm. But, as a noob I didn't spend $400 on my entire rig.

Mykaru wrote:Actually, Eff I suspect in *this* case WMA is White Mountain Armories. Adam IS known for great kettle hats.

Gah.

Sorry, I missed the post and only saw the question. Never thunk it would be Adam. Sigh.

I am a foob.



Effingham

Maeryk wrote:middle-of-the-road helm, which was both nice, and tank, and would _hold_ it's value,

Holding value has a lot to do with how it's handled and maintained too.

Part of that probably has to do with the price that's paid. Most folks would be more inclined to take CARE of an $800 helmet, and baby it a bit, where as the $100 cheapie can roll around in the back of the truck merrily collecting puddles of acid rain and who cares? it's $100.

Doesn't matter how pretty (or not) it started out in life, if it gets the crap beat out of it, and is allowed to rust away into dust, it's not going to have much value. Planish out the bad dents, and keep it clean, the $100 helm can sell for $80-90 down the road.

Mikael d'Armstreet wrote:14 ga is not a problem and 12 possible too, but I'm a bit surprised especially if you are talking about rattan SCA combat. BTW, please advice what is typical weight of SCA rattan sword and other widely used SCA weapon. Thank you

1 kilo, maybe as much as 1,5k for a one-handed sword, especially with steel basket hilt. Bastard swords with 1m-1.25m of blade and about 30cm of handle, about 2 kilos. SCA polearms, halberds and glaives and such, 2 kilos plus, but their heads are padded, and resilient. Their impact, while heavy, is not very hard or stinging. The typical weight is comparable to a rebated steel sword or an aluminum bladed axe. The big difference is that 3cm striking edge, and rattan's springiness. It stores up impact energy and then rebounds from armor, rather than what steel tries to do, which is to dig in and plow through.

14 gauge (2mm?) in mild (A36) steel is typical for helmets and helms, and some will use the 12 gauge. These thicknesses are more for mild steel; higher carbon steels with heat treatment, or stainless steels too, can go quite a lot lighter. Stainless, since it resists bending and denting more, usually goes two gauge numbers lighter than mild would. The SCA minimum steel thickness in helmets is 1,6mm finished thickness. You may prefer 1,8mm or so.

Vam zhelayu schastlivogo!

Konstantin the Red wrote:

Mikael d'Armstreet wrote:14 ga is not a problem and 12 possible too, but I'm a bit surprised especially if you are talking about rattan SCA combat. BTW, please advice what is typical weight of SCA rattan sword and other widely used SCA weapon. Thank you

1 kilo, maybe as much as 1,5k for a one-handed sword, especially with steel basket hilt. Bastard swords with 1m-1.25m of blade and about 30cm of handle, about 2 kilos. SCA polearms, halberds and glaives and such, 2 kilos plus, but their heads are padded, and resilient. Their impact, while heavy, is not very hard or stinging. The typical weight is comparable to a rebated steel sword or an aluminum bladed axe. The big difference is that 3cm striking edge, and rattan's springiness. It stores up impact energy and then rebounds from armor, rather than what steel tries to do, which is to dig in and plow through.

14 gauge (2mm?) in mild (A36) steel is typical for helmets and helms, and some will use the 12 gauge. These thicknesses are more for mild steel; higher carbon steels with heat treatment, or stainless steels too, can go quite a lot lighter. Stainless, since it resists bending and denting more, usually goes two gauge numbers lighter than mild would. The SCA minimum steel thickness in helmets is 1,6mm finished thickness. You may prefer 1,8mm or so.

Vam zhelayu schastlivogo!

Hmm, interesting. Does anybody have pictures of helmet damaged during SCA combat? I don't mean fully damaged (LOL), just want to look at traces of rattan swords on metal. There is a huge difference because of for metal swords fight helmet's shape is more important then gauge. Actually most tourney helmets have 2mm (14 ga) top and reinforced face

The usual cumulative SCA damage is a group of dents at the shieldside temple, from just above the left eye-slot, or sight, to about halfway back along the helmet. So, the dents concentrate on the upper left quadrant of the helmet.

This shows off "killing blows" that most typically happen to new fighters: they are fighting with a shield, and their upper arms fatigue, especially the deltoid muscle. The shield droops a few centimeters, and clunk! there's just enough room for the other fighter to strike just over the shield at the helmet. You can make a pretty fair guess how long the helmet has been in use by the number of dents around the left temple. Particularly if the helmet is a Shire's or Barony's loaner-helm, used by dozens of new fighters. Loaner helms can become very battered.

Some helmet makers will put extra-thick metal at the upper front of the helm or helmet to help resist this. At worst, the dents are smaller.

OK I was mentioned so I'll hijack for self promotion a little. I've got bargrill bascinets starting at $150 now they're just not up on the site yet. Also sugarloafs starting at $200

I love "The Society" so this is not a bash just an empassioned plea to not produce anything ugly and market it to us, because we are cheap and we can be suckers.

Don't ask us what is popular because we all have diffrent interests. One guy wants Roman type H, another guy wants a Valsgarde 6 or a bascinet. One helmet will not work for all of these people and they all deserve a good looking hard wearing helm.Look at great books on armour, European museums are filled with what we are interested in and want to look like.

As far as cost goes 200 bucks is a great price but we know a 200$ helm is damn-ugly. We all wished that there was something out there for maybe a bit more but was a big leap in quality. That is the void in the SCA market!

400-600$ are the people I want you all to sell to. I want them to feel happy that they scrounged up a couple hundred more bucks and got the latest import from the Ukraine. Do NOT sell to the lowest common economic denominator in the SCA. That makes the field at events look shabby and dull, and I personally feel hurts whole Society. I hate that more than I hate bad armour, if its possible.

But still you have a good idea here is my dream list of what I want in a mass produced helm.

1) a helm with real form and shape. NO hemispherical domes NO rolled back plates. The genuine articles of medieval armour are SEXY, armour should make people look and feel good about wearing it. I know this sounds expensive... but I want you make it up in volume of sales because your product looks superior to everthing else in the price range.

2) Understand what is period in whatever helm(s) you decide to make. Feel free to "genericize" if you will but make it fit, feel and look right.

3) Loose the bargrills. The Road Warrior look kills any "medieval feel" we can make. And when we have to stand in the same world where movies like kingdom of heaven and LOTR exist "the look and feel" is EVERYTHING.

4) No visible welds. Nothing wrecks "the dream" on the field as we call it like a splattery ugly weld. Finish work is what will make your "look and feel" succeed or fail, do not let it out of your shop if it is unfinished or ugly.


Here is my gift to this thread Mikael: all laser, waterjet, and plasma cutters require to cut out a good alternative to a "bar grill" is a VECTOR LINE drawing like an .ai or a .dwg format drawing. thats Adobe's Illustrators' format or Autodesk's Autocad format. So download the free trials learn them. Buy cheapo student versions... Hell PM me, if you are serious I might send you some grillwork profiles for free.

Once you have that vector line work you can cut as many grills as you can afford to make all at once. Heck if you are really efficient you can get the rest of your helmet parts nested in the same cut stack and get it all cut out at once. That is conceivably hundreds of helms in one sitting for maybe a grand thats less than the cost of a B-3 folks. Sad but true.

Thank you very-very much! Our problem is fast-growing but unbalanced economic so prices for metal, consumable materials, rent and even electricity grows very fast. So we have a choice to bang sales producing most-wanted and relatively inexpensive armor (I hope we will never made anything ugly) or concentrate at high-quality, complicated but expensive products. Second way is much more preferable for me personally but I should think about all people in team too. Thou, I think we will do that.
Many thanks for advice and help, today I visited friends in workshop who have laser cuter and I think this is really great device for armor-makers so we will start to design patterns for visors and may be some accents as soon as possible. Many thanks for patterns proposal but I think we should use our own patterns as, first, this is only way to master this process and, second, doing artworks is better to be OOAK. Anyway, many thanks for advice and inspiration - helmet you made I seen in other thread is really sweet.
Did you have site or gallery to look at your other works if it's possible.
Thank you and sorry my poor english - thanks to AA communication and letters from customers it's a bit better now but not good enough

No I have no website, no gallery just whatever you can find on the archive here. Even if I did must admit even that helm of Rodrigo's (point front.jpg) is only OK. All of my stuff is only an interesting average quality armour. My only consolation in picking up a hammer is I can get better.

I went to your website, its all good looking stuff the prices seem really reasonable. My only critique would be to explore other finishes the high buff shiny surface is a modern creation. Figuring out a good "period" surface finish may even decrease your production time. Just a thought.

Good luck

VRIN wrote:No I have no website, no gallery just whatever you can find on the archive here. Even if I did must admit even that helm of Rodrigo's (point front.jpg) is only OK. All of my stuff is only an interesting average quality armour. My only consolation in picking up a hammer is I can get better.

I went to your website, its all good looking stuff the prices seem really reasonable. My only critique would be to explore other finishes the high buff shiny surface is a modern creation. Figuring out a good "period" surface finish may even decrease your production time. Just a thought.

Good luck

Thank you very much, I'll add mate finishing at site as free option as it's not too complicated)

VRIN wrote:
Here is my gift to this thread Mikael: all laser, waterjet, and plasma cutters require to cut out a good alternative to a "bar grill" is a VECTOR LINE drawing like an .ai or a .dwg format drawing. thats Adobe's Illustrators' format or Autodesk's Autocad format. So download the free trials learn them. Buy cheapo student versions... Hell PM me, if you are serious I might send you some grillwork profiles for free.

I found that laser cutter I have access to can cut maximum 2.5 mm steel but I guess we can made 2 layered visor or use waterjet. Actually laser looks better as waterjet leaves ugly edges. Thank you one more time for idea and impression

Hrolfr wrote:Kettles and bascinets (with optional solid face rather than bargrills)

Could you do kits with a tutorial to put it together?

I deal with college students, and can put out $75 each or so, and help them put it together. I front the $$ and they take the helm home when they have paid for it.

've moved on to a badassed WMA Kettle.

Yeah, that's Adam's, and it IS badassed

Here's his site

http://www.whitemountainarmoury.com/standard.php

Yes here's my Whitemoutain custom kettle hat... I love it...

RoaK wrote:

Hrolfr wrote:Kettles and bascinets (with optional solid face rather than bargrills)

Could you do kits with a tutorial to put it together?

I deal with college students, and can put out $75 each or so, and help them put it together. I front the $$ and they take the helm home when they have paid for it.

$75 sounds unreal for me as shipping from Ukraine cost $12-15 per kg (2.2 lbs) depending on total weight

When you could actually buy something from Illusion Armory and get it ...that was many many many moons ago, they would always have these fixed grill bascinets for sale in 14 and 12 gauge. If someone could do they same job on these and especially the grill work for $150 that would be great..Hell, I would buy one as a tourney helmet instead of using my kettle

I second that, bascinet's that are atleast 14 gauge and are proberly shaped would always be in demand. Its the first helmet of probably 40%
of new fighters. Too bad you can't depend on Illusion, they do such nice
work.

my first hat was an ironmonger high ridge stainless norman.. i love that thing

Sallets.... with bevors....

must turn the tide against the 14C Mafia!!!!!!

danfrombham wrote:I second that, bascinet's that are atleast 14 gauge and are proberly shaped would always be in demand. Its the first helmet of probably 40%
of new fighters. Too bad you can't depend on Illusion, they do such nice
work.

Sorry, what/who is 'Illusion' ?

My Friend from the Ukraine,

Illusion Armory was a very good and talented SCA armorer years ago. But, like many armorers they would want 1/2 deposit on the order and promise to have it done in a couple of months and then you might get your armor in 6 months ..one year ..two years or never. These type of armorers are why you and Steel Mastery have found a home in the SCA. Good product ..good price and you have fast delivery.
Edward

Hospitaller@Acre wrote:My Friend from the Ukraine,

Illusion Armory was a very good and talented SCA armorer years ago. But, like many armorers they would want 1/2 deposit on the order and promise to have it done in a couple of months and then you might get your armor in 6 months ..one year ..two years or never. These type of armorers are why you and Steel Mastery have found a home in the SCA. Good product ..good price and you have fast delivery.
Edward

Thank you! I understand. We are making full armor suit in a month:) And I think it's a bit longer then I like) Probably for custom armor 1-1.5 months is OK, but not more

Mikael d'Armstreet wrote:

RoaK wrote:

Hrolfr wrote:Kettles and bascinets (with optional solid face rather than bargrills)

Could you do kits with a tutorial to put it together?

I deal with college students, and can put out $75 each or so, and help them put it together. I front the $$ and they take the helm home when they have paid for it.

$75 sounds unreal for me as shipping from Ukraine cost $12-15 per kg (2.2 lbs) depending on total weight

I understand that completely. Would it it be posssible to do $75 USD + shipping ( if there was a multiple shipping quote ie getting the best shipping rate avaiable).

My thing is getting people in safe armor, as inexpensively as posible. Since I front the money, I would like it to be as inexpenive as possible.

For the record, at this time I do not resell, merely act as an agnt to get people fighting.

Hrolfr wrote:[quote="Mikael
For the record, at this time I do not resell, merely act as an agnt to get people fighting.

Type me please PM with details and probably some scetches of what you need

InsaneIrish wrote:Ashcraft Baker:
http://www.ashcraftbaker.com/Conical.htm

Do you or anyone else here have experience buying form these people? I got to say, $150 for a helm that is safe and good looking(ish) is a draw. But I want/need to be able to use it.

Thoughts? Please PM me.

ABs are solidly constructed, and are aimed at the newb on a budget, so he can pack on the experience before he spends greater sums on fancier hats. I've never heard of anyone with a normal sized 7 1/8 head complain of them being too small.

About the only sort of hat that is easier to construct than AB spuntops is a 13th-c. barrelhelm.

AB makes no pretense whatsoever to period faithfulness, but they make among the best of loaners, and their gear gives a lot of protection for the buck.

Vladimir Krisa wrote:

InsaneIrish wrote:Ashcraft Baker:
http://www.ashcraftbaker.com/Conical.htm

Thanks for link.

I have been fighting in an A/B spuntop for two year now. I go to a very hard hitting practice and I don't have a single dent in it. The bars have gotten a little bent and I have had to re-straighten them from time to time with an axe and hammer.

The helm cost about $80. It rang like a bell until I rubberized the inside. I am now looking to upgrade. Not ready to for that final helm. I am looking for an intermediate one. I would like to see more offering in the $200 to $300 range. I see a nice stainless bascinets from Iron Monger with a face-lift for $350. I also saw a line for stainless bascinets from Darkvictory with a lift for $200. It seemed a little too lite and too short for me.

tsafa wrote:I have been fighting in an A/B spuntop for two year now. I go to a very hard hitting practice and I don't have a single dent in it. The bars have gotten a little bent and I have had to re-straighten them from time to time with an axe and hammer.

The helm cost about $80. It rang like a bell until I rubberized the inside. I am now looking to upgrade. Not ready to for that final helm. I am looking for an intermediate one. I would like to see more offering in the $200 to $300 range. I see a nice stainless bascinets from Iron Monger with a face-lift for $350. I also saw a line for stainless bascinets from Darkvictory with a lift for $200. It seemed a little too lite and too short for me.

Thank you for references, Iron Monger helmets looks very nice

Mikael d'Armstreet wrote:

tsafa wrote:I have been fighting in an A/B spuntop for two year now. I go to a very hard hitting practice and I don't have a single dent in it. The bars have gotten a little bent and I have had to re-straighten them from time to time with an axe and hammer.

The helm cost about $80. It rang like a bell until I rubberized the inside. I am now looking to upgrade. Not ready to for that final helm. I am looking for an intermediate one. I would like to see more offering in the $200 to $300 range. I see a nice stainless bascinets from Iron Monger with a face-lift for $350. I also saw a line for stainless bascinets from Darkvictory with a lift for $200. It seemed a little too lite and too short for me.

Thank you for references, Iron Monger helmets looks very nice

I will second a vote for Ironmonger - I got a rearpoint bascinet and turned it into a "momonari kabuto" (sort of) with some minimal effort. They make a nice, solid helmet with a good price (sub $150), and they got it to me quickly.

FYI, that is a khaki-colored sash, not white.

The shape of the helmet is also the defining factor in SCA combat. Another is material.

A mild steel 2 mm (sorry, I'm not very good with gauges) great helm is easily dented but my riveted 1,6 mm stainless gjermundbu Viking helm doesn't have a single dent. (And I've been using it actively for the last 7 years or so and it has been hit by the likes of Duke Uther and Jade).

The helmets I'd like to see are good-looking 16th century burgonets. Pretty much nobody makes them. All the armorers have bascinets and most of them have early period spangenhelms. But nobody makes decent burgonets, unless custom-ordered.

And I would be happy with gauntlets that work. Those that really protect ALL my fingers properly, don't weigh a ton, don't restrict the movement of the wrist, and that allow me to open and close my hand easily. And look good.

I would be willing to pay quite a lot for a good pair of gauntlets but I've never seen a decent pair. All the ones that people have said are excellent have proved out to be horrible.

And it would be nice if the waiting period was somewhat sensible. It seems that nowadays you have to wait a few years to get on the waiting list of a decent armorer.

I am a bit picky, I know. But I take this sport rather seriously and I like stuff that really works, and looks good at the same time.

Sir GrimR

Mikael d'Armstreet wrote:Thank you very-very much! Our problem is fast-growing but unbalanced economic so prices for metal, consumable materials, rent and even electricity grows very fast. So we have a choice to bang sales producing most-wanted and relatively inexpensive armor (I hope we will never made anything ugly) or concentrate at high-quality, complicated but expensive products.

As a person who is working on upgrading their kit from newbie plastic to an intermediate metal kit, one thing I look for is safety. As much as I would rather save money on a product, I will spend a few dollars here and there to ensure that it will protect me to my satisfaction.

If I could offer any suggestion it would be that ensure that the safety of your armor is top priority, followed by cost, and aesthetics should be third. Please don't sacrifice safety for a cheaper price.

Ewen MacSuibhne wrote:

Mikael d'Armstreet wrote:Thank you very-very much! Our problem is fast-growing but unbalanced economic so prices for metal, consumable materials, rent and even electricity grows very fast. So we have a choice to bang sales producing most-wanted and relatively inexpensive armor (I hope we will never made anything ugly) or concentrate at high-quality, complicated but expensive products.

As a person who is working on upgrading their kit from newbie plastic to an intermediate metal kit, one thing I look for is safety. As much as I would rather save money on a product, I will spend a few dollars here and there to ensure that it will protect me to my satisfaction.

If I could offer any suggestion it would be that ensure that the safety of your armor is top priority, followed by cost, and aesthetics should be third. Please don't sacrifice safety for a cheaper price.

Regarding safety we are making armour for European steel sword tournaments during 7 years, I'm planning to post some videos soon to show how it works. Due to this fact we have a lot of experience in making top-protection cosed helmets, but just starting to work with bargrills for SCA.