The Armour Archive

Dmitry:

Is that lamellar djawshan shown with the lacing/backing material partially intact, or am I misreading the text somehow?



[This message has been edited by Templar Bob/De Tyre (edited 02-25-2003).]

The article lacks specifics about the armour (like how the rows are connected). From my reading of it, the original lacing material is partially preserved (cloth covering and backing is only present in traces). On closer re-reading, it's possible the author only posited that the plates were laced together, and the lacing has disintegrated.. The quality of the find is amazing nonetheless.
I wouldn't be surprised if Cariadoc didn't know about it, the info only appeared in English a year or two ago.

-Dmitriy

While on the subject of lamellar, have any of you tried lining the torso section in light leather? I thought of doing this, maybe with a 3-5 oz. leather of soft temper. I dont know if it would make any difference in comfort, but I dont see how it would hurt. Now I dont mean covering the edges, I mean basically a layer of light leather covering the entire inside. Is there a historical provenance for this?

Warclub -- I haven't tried it, or seen it done, but the article I cited above suggests that this particular suit was lined with some sort of canvas backing.
They don't have much to go on in terms of evidence, might be wrong.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Templar Bob/De Tyre:
<B> Sarnac Khan:

Define "That"...

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

D'OH!!

"one of the Archivers who used to post here quite a lot built herself a stainless lamellar djawshan (I'm using the Arabic name, because I don't remember the proper Mongol one) in a Mongolian style. What I saw of it was a sight to behold. Plus, they were made in the actual size as Tibetan "Willowleaf" style lamellae, in that they were about the width of my finger, and about three or four inches long. It was a beautiful thing to behold!"

That is "that"

sorry.

Sarnac Khan:

Bojei Temur. That's who it was.

I'm not sure how to contact her, but I'll check a couple of leads out...

ushumgal, i use the same amount of plates in each row.
I am working on a new one that is laced from the center front out, so all the overlaps will face twards the back, kind of hard to explain but ill post a pic when its done

Thats how mine is done, center plate with others coming off of it to both sides...

The first lamellar torso I built used wax-hardened leather. I laced it very tight, and it performed well. The inconsistency due to using leather and wax (small deflections; more than with metal) provided enough slack that the end result was snug, but not tight.

Used maxi cord.
I had to relace it after about 1 year.

Then I used some aluminum lamellae, and have used that for 1.5 years with virtually no maintenance required for the lacing in the torso.

I have nearly finished a klibanion using the banded-lacing pattern that appears to be depicted in some Byzantine paintings of saints and soldiers.
Some things I've observed from that pattern: if the lamellar overlaps downward, it doesn't wear as well when it's against the body. If it overlaps upward, it seems to fit the torso better, and moves with the torso better.
Armor that hangs against a portion of the body, like a leg, is the opposite: seems to wear better when overlapping downard.

Robert, next time you see Dagan and Mika, please give them my best regards as well. I really missed hanging out with you all. I'll have to wait until next year to go to Pennsic again, but at least I'll be in better shape!

I just flipped through my old emails and found one from Bojei responding to my questions about her lamellar. Here is part of her response:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> made my torso out of 18 gage & my hips/legs out of 20 gage. The 20 gage seems fine so far. I did a 50% overlap on the torso but only about 30% on the legs due to weight considerations.
The insanity is 9,746 holes for the suit - of course, I overcalculated the # of plates I needed per row so I made a bunch of extra, unnecesary, bloody time consuming plates... & I don't have the arm/shoulder plates done yet so the actual count is a little lower.
I've got 4 different hole designs and about 8 different plate shapes so I could form fit the armor. Most plates have 13 holes each. (This dropped about 3 pounds from the armor) Form fitting it made the weight of the skirt rest on my hips rather than my shoulders. I tried to keep the weight off my torso so I didn't have to work at it to breathe.
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I remember seeing this stuff at Pennsic and it was niiiice.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by sarnac:
<B> D'OH!!

"one of the Archivers who used to post here quite a lot built herself a stainless lamellar djawshan (I'm using the Arabic name, because I don't remember the proper Mongol one) in a Mongolian style. What I saw of it was a sight to behold. Plus, they were made in the actual size as Tibetan "Willowleaf" style lamellae, in that they were about the width of my finger, and about three or four inches long. It was a beautiful thing to behold!"

That is "that"

sorry.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sarnac Khan:

E-mail sent.

I've had two of t-bob's suits, and if his lames were a little stiffer, (thicker plate wise) and he were still making them I'd have a third. He really know his S*&% of this topic.

Many icons and murals from the byz cultural sphere suggest that this armour comes in three separate pieces:

1. The "vest" covering waist and up. Lamellars seems to be aligned vertically even at the shoulders.
2. The "belly mirror" protecting the belly.
3. The skirt protecting vitals and upper thighs. The way it hangs lets you believe that it is resting on the hips.

When 1 and 3 is combined, the skirt goes over the vest.

Simple spaulders are not uncommon. When they exist, they are bowl shaped and protrude from under the lamellar shoulder!

Upper arm protection protrudes from under the spaulder, or the vest if no spaulder.

Yours/

[This message has been edited by Rizzo (edited 02-27-2003).]

NOBODY MOVE! I'M JACKIN THIS THREAD!
Would it be better to lace an entire row of plates, as opposed to lacing say 8 or 10 plates together then making a row from them? Would this cut down on the risk of armour failure due to one cord breaking? I am using 7 strand paracord for lacing, if that makes a difference.

Warclub:

My rule of thumb:

<B>

• Measure the distance from your navel to your spine. Lace enough lamellar in a row to make that distance, plus one lamellae. This will make allowance for padding.
  
  
• Make four rows of lamellar just like that.
  
  
• Now, lace four more rows of lamellar the same length, only overlapped in the opposite direction. This will make the <u>lower torso</u>.
  
  
• Make the plates for your back, shoulder-straps and chest, as listed in my lamellar article.

</B>

You'll note in the article that I mention that you double your lacing. This will go a long way at keeping the cord from breaking so quickly. It also helps keep things in place if one cord does break.

Hope this helps.

I think I get what you are saying T-Bob, lace half a row basically. I am using pre-made plates from GAA Armouries, and unfortunately the holes are only big enough to accomodate one lace. With the plates all being one size, I may run into problems at points like the sleeves, and the skirt portion, but I will just have to see as I go. Thanks for the great article on lamellar, I have enjoyed readin it over and over. Sure will be glad when you finish that article on your rattan sword scabbard (hint, hint).

Gentlemen:

For a further discussion on the subject, go to Edwin's page, My new klibanion, rough draft, or join in the discussion on his Armour Archive thread (same title), located here.

T-Bob, POD - you two really know how to make a girl blush - thanks for the compliments.

I've had quite a few work deadlines plus I'm running the feast at a mongolian event this weekend so I haven't had a chance to read or post in a while. (event, Stone Dog Inn in Chicago on 3/8 - come and eat high feast & taste actual mongolian recipes from the 1300's

Sarnac, I responded from the mongol list but I haven't heard back from you. What would you like to know?

On the overlap upwards/downwards issue, the mongols were horseman and their suits overlapped both ways - sometimes on the same suit. I've got one illumination that shows this very clearly. I'll try to scan it & post it (if I can figure out how)

Templar Bob, How do you tie off the ends of the maxi-cord? Do you just end up with a bunch of knots inside the armour or what?

Maxi-Cord frays at a cut end easy. I usually tie a knot, and so long as I'm not being lazy, I'll use a candle to fuse it all together a little.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ian Glenagary:
Templar Bob, How do you tie off the ends of the maxi-cord? Do you just end up with a bunch of knots inside the armour or what?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I tie a knot when I finish it, then take a fireplace lighter to ignite the frayed bitter ends. Once they melt a bit, I seal them with a wet cloth, and flatten the melted polyprophylene. This secures the knot so it will not come loose.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Bojei Temur:
<B>T-Bob, POD - you two really know how to make a girl blush - thanks for the compliments.

I've had quite a few work deadlines plus I'm running the feast at a mongolian event this weekend so I haven't had a chance to read or post in a while. (event, Stone Dog Inn in Chicago on 3/8 - come and eat high feast & taste actual mongolian recipes from the 1300's

Sarnac, I responded from the mongol list but I haven't heard back from you. What would you like to know?

On the overlap upwards/downwards issue, the mongols were horseman and their suits overlapped both ways - sometimes on the same suit. I've got one illumination that shows this very clearly. I'll try to scan it & post it (if I can figure out how)</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hush and I will be there...could you bring your armour, so I can take pictures and post them here?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Bojei Temur:
<B>T-Bob, POD - you two really know how to make a girl blush - thanks for the compliments.

I've had quite a few work deadlines plus I'm running the feast at a mongolian event this weekend so I haven't had a chance to read or post in a while. (event, Stone Dog Inn in Chicago on 3/8 - come and eat high feast & taste actual mongolian recipes from the 1300's

Sarnac, I responded from the mongol list but I haven't heard back from you. What would you like to know?

On the overlap upwards/downwards issue, the mongols were horseman and their suits overlapped both ways - sometimes on the same suit. I've got one illumination that shows this very clearly. I'll try to scan it & post it (if I can figure out how)</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Do you have any pics of your armour?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by sarnac:
<B>
Do you have any pics of your armour?</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Um, not any decent ones but apparently T-Bob will take pictures for me Saturday

Does anybody at all have any aluminum plates they want to sell i am want about 100-110

thanks

chris