The Armour Archive

I use cloth on most of my COPs now as I find it looks good. Also as I am working on the equipment for myself the persona, an esquire and eldest son of a wealthy knight, and it seems that knights almost always have cloth COPs. I have no idea why really. The really well off tend to have velvets and other fine material. There is a inventory of the Pricne Edward from 1358 that has loads of COP's all are fabric not one leather.

I tried to find the post on the search function but couldn't here is the source. When I have a second I will look it up. It is either the Calendar of Letter Books of London or the Memoranda Books of London in the 1st part of the 14th. I will take a look when I can but today I have some special events at work I have to do first. Some type of awards luncheon.

RPM

I would be willing to bet (although I haven't researched it) that the tanning industry was neither as advanced nor as concerned with deterioration as our current tanning industry is. Cloth was probably preferred over leather because you could make a prettier finish and it just didn't stink like rotting leather. Also you could probably replace the entire shell or make repairs in cloth fairly easily. I imagine that decomposing leather would cause damage to the iron as well. Just an unresearched opinion though.

Cameron

At this point i am not worried about historical accuracy. I am more worried about what will last the longest and will in the end cost me theleast amount of money. I get a discount at tandys and i have a $25 gift certificate there, so, it will robably be leather (at least for the first one i make).

Kerry Pratt wrote:I would be willing to bet (although I haven't researched it) that the tanning industry was neither as advanced nor as concerned with deterioration as our current tanning industry is. Cloth was probably preferred over leather because you could make a prettier finish and it just didn't stink like rotting leather. Also you could probably replace the entire shell or make repairs in cloth fairly easily. I imagine that decomposing leather would cause damage to the iron as well. Just an unresearched opinion though.

They knew enough that they were able to tan leather such that it wouldn't rot easily. Hell, many leather objects have survived hundreds of years (in certain conditions.)

I highly doubt people in the middle ages would put up with the smell of rotting leather with them every day.

-Donasian.

I don't doubt that cloth was used in conjunction with leather, the cloth being on the outside of the jupon for a nice finish.

It's just that by the time you laminate together enough layers of fabric to equal the strength of thin leather, you've got something just as hot as leather to wear.

In my experience, cloth against the plates always results in the plates wearing holes in the cloth.

I am going to use leather.

And i bought the kit from Mad Matt's Armoury, so, i will see if that works out for me.

There are brigs covered in leather mentioned in the Paston letters and some surviving ones in Spain. It seems unlikely to me that brigs could be covered in leather but not earlier coats of plates. I really don't see any historical impediment to using either covering.

But the brigandines were *covered* in leather, as a finish - they were not the foundation. THe foundation would have bveen cloth, and there are fragments that show this, by having leather under nail heads, but the fabric pattern of the underlying textile rusted ont the plates.

And the mention of leather covered brigandines is in the Howard accounts, not the Paston letters.

Steve -SoFC- wrote:I don't doubt that cloth was used in conjunction with leather, the cloth being on the outside of the jupon for a nice finish.

It's just that by the time you laminate together enough layers of fabric to equal the strength of thin leather, you've got something just as hot as leather to wear.

In my experience, cloth against the plates always results in the plates wearing holes in the cloth.

Wrong way around - leather on the outside, cloth on the inside.

You are probably using the wrong sort of cloth, and finishing the plates incorrectly for the job. We have three brigandines inn the group now, the oldest one mopre than 5 years old, and none of them are showing wear to the foundation from the plates. We have had to fix a seam on one, but no wear through on cloth. I submit our plates are smaller, and would be more prone to the phenomenon.

I submit that smaller plates are more likely to move with the fabric when it flexes, while larger plates sit still and when the fabric moves the edges of the plates cut into the fabric.

On my last coat of plates I used thin leather for the outer layer, and cotton canvas for the inner layer. The corners of some of the plates wore through the canvas in some places, despite the fact that all corners will generously radiused and I filed all the edges smooth.

Steve

Kerry Pratt wrote:I would be willing to bet (although I haven't researched it) that the tanning industry was neither as advanced nor as concerned with deterioration as our current tanning industry is. Cloth was probably preferred over leather because you could make a prettier finish and it just didn't stink like rotting leather. Also you could probably replace the entire shell or make repairs in cloth fairly easily. I imagine that decomposing leather would cause damage to the iron as well. Just an unresearched opinion though.

Cameron

mm.. I'll just recommend giving more credit to your predecessors.

You might consider that deterioration was a much bigger deal to a society that didn't view everything as disposable and instantly replaceable.

It's also simply true that they used lots of leather, in many critical areas and in many luxury items. Leather in animal harness must hold up well and not rot away. Can't be hauling the wagon along and have to stop and build a new draft harness for the oxen or horses.

Lots of surviving examples of beautifully decorated bags, cases, chests, boxes, etc. made with leather decoration or entirely from leather, and still looking good today 500 plus years after they were made.

Vegetable tanning changed minimally for hundreds and hundreds of years. It's a pretty simple straightforward process that produces good results. The big change in modern tanning is to the use of chrome tan for the majority of leather goods. Modern veg tanning is not meaningfully different from veg tanning of 500 years ago.

I sit cheerfully corrected and in submission.

Cameron

P.S. I did say that it was just a guess, didn't I???

RandallMoffet wrote:and it seems that knights almost always have cloth COPs. I have no idea why really. The really well off tend to have velvets and other fine material. There is a inventory of the Pricne Edward from 1358 that has loads of COP's all are fabric not one leather.

I would submit that you find fabric COP's as a conspicuous display of wealth, tie that in with "ransom" and you would want to be perceived as being as wealthy as possible thereby increasing the likely-hood of being captured rather than killed. Especially in Sir John De Creke's day when the layered look was sheik. Also time and labour savings were not as major a consideration in the medieval mind as it is in our modern thinking.

Cossack Odo wrote:At this point i am not worried about historical accuracy. I am more worried about what will last the longest and will in the end cost me theleast amount of money. I get a discount at tandys and i have a $25 gift certificate there, so, it will robably be leather (at least for the first one i make).

what about the old trick of after rounding and smoothing all your plates, you wrap/pad the edges of the plates with duct tape?

it gets hidden anyhow, but does it actually improve longevity?

I may try that, had not even thought of it, it sound like it would help