Skirt Chains?

[Bryan Wiggins]

So a few of us may have seen the pictures of the Breda effigy linked in Marc van Hasselt's thread. Here's a pic for those who haven't:

[img]http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2026/155 ... 723f_b.jpg[/img]

Info listed with the image in the above Flickr account:

ca. 1470-1475 - 'Engelbrecht I (+1442) and Jan IV (+1475) van Nassau, Lords of Breda and the Lek', Grote Kerk, Breda, province of North Brabant, Holland

I've searched the archive up and down and can't seem to find any other reference for these chains. Does anyone know:


1.) How long prior to and after 1470-1475 might these chains have been worn?

2.) How common might they have been? I'm guessing not very since i can't find much reference to them.

3.) Were they isolated to this particular region?

4.) Did they serve any function other than embellishment? I can't imagine them providing any more protection than the fauld beneath them.

EDIT: 5.) Do they have any other name that might be more easily searchable?


As usual, any other pics would be appreciated

Thanks,

Eric

[chef de chambre]

The little bags on the end, I believe, are purses (of a sort, anyway). They are decorative, not in any way, shape, or form protective.

I don't think those sorts of belts were commonplace much after this image was sculpted, and I think the fashion began at the turn of the 15th century. It is Old Fashioned by the time of the sculpture, but the Dutch are a conservative people (or they were, anyways).

[Smilingotter]

Interesting that the the chains aren't all the same style...

[Jon Terris]

There is one image I have seen recently that springs to mind, unfortunately I cannot recall the name

In the image there is a knight with a belt that looks just like the one on the effigy but I think it was cited as being a belt with bells-

[Eadrich]

Stupid question undoubtedly, but are those purses or supposed to represent some sort of cast-metal heads? Not that I can think of a good reason for such a thing, but that is what they look like to me.

[chef de chambre]

I doubt it, consider how much they would weigh, given how many of them, and their size. Besides, there are colour images from the era showing these sorts of things to be clearly not metalic, but cloth of some sort.

[Bake Nasty]

Well, this is kind of related I think...

[img]http://www.themcs.org/armour/knights/20 ... 0%2046.jpg[/img]

[chef de chambre]

Not related. The chains on the brass you posted are keeper chains attached to the pommels of the sword and dagger, to keep them from being lost in combat. They aren't even attached to the belt.

[Bake Nasty]

Not related. The chains on the brass you posted are keeper chains attached to the pommels of the sword and dagger, to keep them from being lost in combat. They aren't even attached to the belt.

[Baron Conal]

I'm not an expert on this kind of thing.....

But those do not really look like pouches/purses.
They look like they heavier than a pouch....

...and the chain would seem to be serious overkill
for pouches...

Why do you think they are?

( Honest question... not criticism....)

Some form of penance maybe?

[Art of Jousting]

Due to most of my research books being still in storage, I cant give any references at the moment. But the style of chains hanging from the belt appear to be a symbolic affectation in use in the lower Rhine region cropping up throughout the 15th C. Normally at the ends of the chains they are bells. Now the speculation is on what they symbolise, with a few theories but nothing that I would say was particularly well support by evidence.

Cheers
Joram

[Mac]

Joram is right about the bells. They were a fashion accessory for a few decades of the 15th c. They can be found in both civilian and military contexts.

Here is a picture of a statue of St. Maurice, which is said to be 1411.

[Mac]

Here are two more from civilian contexts.

The one is from an early 15th c. Tristan and Isolde.

The other is from a Roman de la Rose. It appears to be a good deal later in the 15th c than I would have expected. The shape of the bells in this pic. are very like the ones in Breda

[sha-ul]

those are quite interesting.
Looking at the effigy in the original post, I could see a possible practical use as armour, the chains with a weighted end(or heavy bell) would hang down an tend to stop a cutting blade much like a jack chain and also would tend to foul any blows they would intercept


(in my VERY uneducated opinion)

[Ansell]

I cannot remember where I read this
explanation; however, I recall they are
not for armour.

The 7 chains or in some cases 7 bells are
used as reminders of the seven virtues.

In the case of Knights: faith, hope, charity,
Justice, prudence, temperance, fortitude.

They can sometimes be seen in use as
seven knots in a monks belt in regards to
their vows.

If you notice in the first post. The armored
fellow is on his knees and holds a set of prayer
beads about his wrists and a small cloak about
his shoulders.

The man standing behind him has his left hand
griping his shoulder and right hand either removing
or holding his helmet. (man at arms perhaps?)

The lady and him have their hands together
as in prayer.

It would appear to me they are in a pose
to exchange wedding vows or some other
ceremony accompanied by two witnesses.

Just my two cents.

[Destichado]

...Is anyone else getting a Warhammer vibe off this fashion, and seeing little thuribles instead of bells?

[Bertus Brokamp]

This type of belt is called a Dusing / Dupsing and some other spellings.
According to
http://u0028844496.user.hosting-agency. ... php/Dusing
'Dusen' is the middle high german word for the modern german 'tosen'. An online dictionary tells me this can be translated as 'raving, roaring, beating, thundering', in short lotsa noise. So quite applicable to a belt with chains and bells.

[Boskaljon]

"klingender Gürtel"

That can be translated to "sounding belt".

[Bryan Wiggins]

Wow, thanks for all of the info everyone. Your help is much appreciated!

So I guess my answers then are:

1.) How long prior to and after 1470-1475 might these chains have been worn? A.) Maybe as early as 1400 to as late as 1475, but not very much later than that.

2.) How common might they have been? A.) Possibly quite common, but more so with civilian attire than over armor.

3.) Were they isolated to this particular region? A.) To be determined

4.) Did they serve any function other than embellishment? A.) Nope

5.) Do they have any other name that might be more easily searchable? A.) Dusing / Dupsing, klingender Gürtel

[chef de chambre]

I think the Roman de la Rose image is 1490's Mac, given the hat and shoes, rather than 16th century. Most Flemish and French images of the mid 1490's show up with the wide toed shoe, rather than a poulaine.

You can clearly see on the St. MAurice you posted, that the object is a bell, I am not used to seeing other shaped Medieval bells.

No doubt it is a 'thundering belt' on the Breda statue, but are there any extant Medieval bells shaped like that, or like the image from the late 15th century Rose you posted?

I think Bells are neglected - I was reading in one scholarly source recently, that the large crupper bell on some horse tack dated to post 15th century, but I've come across a goodly number of mid to late 15th century images with that whopping big bell dead atop the horses rump.

[Mac]

Here are a couple of pics. of what might be termed "pear shaped" bells.


The first is a page of pear shaped bells from a metal detectorist's identification guide.

The other is of a pear shaped pewter bell in the Mitchiner collection. (I'm afraid you will need to click on that one to open it)

Mac

[chef de chambre]

Ooooh, Pretty! Thanks MAc!

I need to find someone to make me whopping big crupper bell for Norm's Medioeval tack, as it is made. It will drive him nuts.

[Brother Logan]

Never seen these before, this is why I love the Archive!
Cheers and thanks,
Leo

[Ansell]

Brief description with references.

I still think theres more to these
bells than just fashion.

Gonna keep looking.

http://www.virtue.to/articles/bells.html

[Bertus Brokamp]

In 1390 a joust was held in Kreuznach, in which the duke of Guelders, Willem van Gulik, decided to participate. Preparations started months before. Amongst others Willem had some belts made for him. One of these was ene groet gordel met ketenen ende mit clocken ende een gordel midden yn syne lyff mit bellen ende hondertviertich bellen. = "A large belt with chains and with bells, and a belt in the middle on his body with 140 (small) bells." The silver bells and also the rest of the belt were gold plated.

[Bertus Brokamp]

Looking at the Breda effigy and the thingies hanging from the belt with chains of Engelbrecht I, I get the idea that they might be bells but covered with cloth. Just a thought.

[Marc van Hasselt]

I might have to take the images to our local juweler/tinsmith and get him to make me a "thundering belt" to go with the armour. It's only right, I suppose.

It's funny, I was just re-reading the middle-dutch story "Karel ende Elegast", which is about Charlemagne going out thieving. After Charlemagne and Elegast have sneaked into the castle of Eggeric, the story's 'bad guy', they make off with most of his riches. Elegast insists on going back for a saddle decorated with small bells:

Hi en leeft niet die u gheseyde / Die verweentheit vanden gereyde / Ende ooc aen dat voorboech / Es te prisene ghenoech: / Daer hangen an hondert scellen groot, / Die alle sijn van goude root / Ende clincken als Eggeric rijt.

Translation:

There lives no man who could tell you / The beauty of the saddle. / And also on the chest belt / There is enough to praise: / There hang one hundred large bells, / All made of red gold / That sound as Eggeric rides.

The story is from the mid-fourteenth century and one of the most popular legends surrounding Charlemagne in the Low Countries.

Marc.

PS - Bertus, for our vocabulary - apparently 'saddle' can be translated as 'gereyde' in middledutch.

[Andrew Young]

First time Ive seen this thread.

Few thoughts.

Wouldnt the chains be heavy? ....er well heavier. The effigy at the top of the thread shows some pretty stout links, leading me to think that they were fairly hefty all told.

And in theory, they would add a hair of protection, even if not intended as such.

First thing I thought of when I read the definition of the chains (flailing, thundering about etc) were those flogging whips used in the old testament (ie, flagellation) and still in use in some parts of the islamic world. This would seem to be a religiously conspicuous 'heart on sleeve' form of dress accessory. ....or ....stress accessory eh.

[gavinblakwode]

Ok, so we now know that the belt has bells hanging off it. But what is the skirt under the fauld? It almost looks like that roman belt with the hanging leather straps that goes with the Lorica Segmentata. Or a kilt , but the dags look too separated to be representing pleated material.

Gavin

[bhaiduk]

Is this what people mean when they say, "I'll be there with bells on."

LOL

[Peter Baker]

They could be some form of padding to keep the bells (or whatever) from marking up his legs...

I say this 'cause it seems that there's one under each bell, and they look mighty thick to be made of anything but cloth or leather.

[Peter Baker]

Also, my dad thinks that they were purely fashion, and that he just liked to ride into battle a-jinglin' and a-janglin'. the reason for this is, if you look, the bells are cut to fit a saddle.
plus, people back then, especially the nobility, were almost as vain as we are, and were certainly weird enough to do something like that...

Just a thought, hope it's helpful.

[Caillech]

You mentioned about padding for the legs- is it possible that the bells are simply attached to the little dag-like pieces of the skirt?

Also, what are those? They look more like enormous dags or the leather strips of the early Roman harnesses than box pleats, because the ends are so separate. And the pleats/dags are so perfectly aligned with the bells. Do people think they are somehow connected? Would this interfere with the ringing of the bell?