The Armour Archive

A friend of mine is considering taking up SCA fighting and has decided that no matter what, he wants a lamellar breastplate.

So we cruised around the interwebs looking at different purveyors of plates and settled on three possible armorers we may choose to buy our plates from. The main difference between the three is the material the plates are made of.

Taking into consideration that we are both novice armorers at best can anybody give us a run down of the pros and cons of Plastic, metal, and leather lamellar plates?

Thanks in advance.

Sure, having done all of them over the years...

Leather works, but seems to require hardening or a pretty high pain tolerance. Mine is pretty high and I still wore padding underneath. Also, it may disintegrate agter 20 years, like mine did

Metal protects the best, but take the longest to make, because you really have to deburr all the holes. And the plates are subject to bending (but not breaking often).

Plastic protects at a level between the 2, but often looks like plastic, which is often not what the wearer wants. Plates also break more often than the other 2 materials.

That's the quick summary.

Pretty much what HG Raito said.

Although with my metal plates (birka style from the AA order). I used 550 paracord and really had only minor issue with some plates cutting through. And those were only on the sections that moved the most. I think your lacing material is what matters the most with metal plates.

Plus metel is period, leather and plastic not.

His friend is looking at buying plates. So, no cutting, deburing, etc. on the metal plates.

I'd say get metal plates. Stainless plates will be thiner, thus lighter than mild plates. Shouldn't tend to get bent as mild does. No rusting, another plus. Though they are shiny.

Having made my own, yeah it's the long way around. Great if you have the time and tools.

What culture is the lamellar for? Hardened leather is correct for some lamellar; metal is correct for others. This is assuming that lamellar is correct for the person's portrayal in the first place.

Flittie wrote:What culture is the lamellar for? Hardened leather is correct for some lamellar; metal is correct for others. This is assuming that lamellar is correct for the person's portrayal in the first place.

He's not really sure what persona he wants yet. He's leaning toward norse I believe. I've seen lamellar worn by many different cultural personas so we chose it based partly on this type of flexibility.

Which lamellar should we choose for which culture?

Flittie wrote:What culture is the lamellar for? Hardened leather is correct for some lamellar; metal is correct for others. This is assuming that lamellar is correct for the person's portrayal in the first place.

IIRC there is no evidence that Leather was used as Lamallar. I believe this is an SCA-ism. All extant lamallar and all information discussing lamallar is metal in manufacture.

As for culture, Eastern norse (swedish, et al), russian, scandinavian, middle eastern (mongol et al.) and Far eastern.

Depending on culture will change lamallar shape. The birka plate could be used for eastern norse, russian, and middle eastern. I Think.

I'ma gonna have to politely disagree a bit with Irish (bot agree a bit, too).

Full-on plastic wasn't used, no, but polymer-coated was, which is essentially plastic (unless you're a materials science sort of person). But not in Europe.

Leather wasn't used, perhaps, but rawhide certainly was. Again, not as far as I know in Europe.

Then again, it doesn't sound like your buddy is interested in Japanese, so it's probably a moot point.

Irish, That is bullshit. We have surviving leather lamellar finds from Dura Europe and Tibet, at minimum. This doesn't even count interpretation via rawhide for the steppe folks.

More commonly of metal in this period: you betcha. Leather lamellar never used? Utter b.s.

I have used leather, aluminum, and stainless steel for lamellar.

My preference is stainless, without any doubts.

Leather works, but is the heaviest (assuming either armor weight or wax hardening).

I do not like plastic lamellar. It's like wearing a thermos. My stainless lets air through, and allows heat to escape better than aluminum. The problem with aluminum is the thickness required to provide sufficient strength.

Russ Mitchell wrote:Irish, That is bullshit. We have surviving leather lamellar finds from Dura Europe and Tibet, at minimum. This doesn't even count interpretation via rawhide for the steppe folks.

More commonly of metal in this period: you betcha. Leather lamellar never used? Utter b.s.

Ok, I clarify my statement that forms of leather were used in the far east. Can you point me in the direction of any findings of "leather" lamallar further west than the Steppes culture?

Thanks for the help guys. I'll definitely recommend the stainless plates to him then...besides it's his money not mine!

InsaneIrish wrote:Ok, I clarify my statement that forms of leather were used in the far east. Can you point me in the direction of any findings of "leather" lamallar further west than the Steppes culture?

One can make arguments in art-history, in a couple sicilian capitals... and a couple of same in balkans, where suspiciously square lamellae are shown. Also, recipes for making mixed-media leather lamellae were known in Egypt, and rawhide/alum-tanned clavain in the Iberian region (though the clavain may have been scale rather than lamellar, we don't have a surviving example that I know of).

InsaneIrish wrote:

Russ Mitchell wrote:Irish, That is bullshit. We have surviving leather lamellar finds from Dura Europe and Tibet, at minimum. This doesn't even count interpretation via rawhide for the steppe folks.

More commonly of metal in this period: you betcha. Leather lamellar never used? Utter b.s.

Ok, I clarify my statement that forms of leather were used in the far east. Can you point me in the direction of any findings of "leather" lamallar further west than the Steppes culture?

Dure Europs would be the middle East, ass end of the roman empire so to speak.
The itmes found were roman military equipment.

Oh, the Egyptian ones were "lacquered," too, so they probably looked spiff.

(Yes, I know, for you art-historians, there's a problem there. I'm limited by my translation on-hand)

I imagine one of the biggest disadvantages of mild steel plates is that it would be very hard to remove the rust from them, compared to, say, the continuous surface of a breastplate or helm.

Some day, I want to bust out a totally sweet Byzantine harness in stainless. Some day...

Russ Mitchell wrote:Oh, the Egyptian ones were "lacquered," too, so they probably looked spiff.

(Yes, I know, for you art-historians, there's a problem there. I'm limited by my translation on-hand)

And one of the Dura quisses was painted red, again very spiff I would think.

Steel.

If we decided to go the mild steel route, would it be possible to gun blue/blacken several plates at once?

Raulin Arbor wrote:If we decided to go the mild steel route, would it be possible to gun blue/blacken several plates at once?

Should be, if you go with the oil and fire route, just string a bunch of them up like clothes on a clothes line (make sure they don't touch) and hang them in the "fire". If you use a good sized BBQ grill I would think you could get 2 rows of 10-12 plates.

Raulin Arbor wrote:If we decided to go the mild steel route, would it be possible to gun blue/blacken several plates at once?

Yes, you can backen/blue more than one plate at a time. You could also paint them with RUSToleum.

white mountain armoury wrote:

Russ Mitchell wrote:Oh, the Egyptian ones were "lacquered," too, so they probably looked spiff.

(Yes, I know, for you art-historians, there's a problem there. I'm limited by my translation on-hand)

And one of the Dura quisses was painted red, again very spiff I would think.

Spiff is definitely the order of the day. Even mamluk jawshans Nicolle documented are painted, in bright colors. I have color photos of one of then, which is painted in red and yellow.

Spring steel lamellar would be pretty darn neat.

-Donasian.

If I were you, I would recommend that my friend decide on the persona *first* as the armour would vary across cultures.

I mean, come on, now.

There is no such thing as generic armour.


Effingham
perhaps stating the obvious

I can speak to the plastic.

I use plastic plates from www.plasticlamellar.com

I've been fighting in it for a while. I like it, its light weight and I have good mobility. I don't have any problems with the plates pinching me or bending or breaking and I've been hit pretty hard.

I built my suit on a set of hockey shoulders with the intention to hide it. I like it alot. I am in the process of getting more plates so I can make it a bit bigger, its too short and I am terrible about fighting above my head when on knees and I end up taking a blow to bare skin.

I would say use a padded jacket under too. especially for a novice because it can sting.

I have use metal lamellar but it was 14g. mild and so heavy I never finished the suit.

as for looks, I think you can create some really interesting colour schemes with the selection that they have

just my opinion.

and for beginers I would say function of beauty. really, its about being safe.

~Casey

Effingham wrote:There is no such thing as generic armour.

in the real world this is true...in the sca however the abominations abound

Effingham wrote:If I were you, I would recommend that my friend decide on the persona *first* as the armour would vary across cultures.

I mean, come on, now.

There is no such thing as generic armour.


Effingham
perhaps stating the obvious

I think maile would be the thing that goes fiurthest across the board.

Effingham wrote:There is no such thing as generic armour.

But there is sucha thing as Generichead.

I agree decide on persona then armor.

I can't quite agree that choosing persona first is the way to go. I know way too many who chose their persona based on what armour that would have had.

If the armour is cool enough (to you), then the persona follows. How the heck to you think I ended up doing Japanese?

generichead wrote:

Effingham wrote:There is no such thing as generic armour.

But there is sucha thing as Generichead.

I agree decide on persona then armor.

Okay, that got a chuckle.

I needed that today. Thanks.

raito wrote:I can't quite agree that choosing persona first is the way to go. I know way too many who chose their persona based on what armour that would have had.

Well, that's true, too... as long as that's actually what happens, rather than just some kludged-together lamellar monstrosity with no concern about it actually looking like something "they" would have worn.

Effingham

You should all be Hungarians, so you have an excuse to wear almost anything you want.

Donasian wrote:Spring steel lamellar would be pretty darn neat.

-Donasian.

do you want it in 1080 or 4130

Effingham wrote:

generichead wrote:

Effingham wrote:There is no such thing as generic armour.

But there is sucha thing as Generichead.

I agree decide on persona then armor.

Okay, that got a chuckle.

I needed that today. Thanks.

raito wrote:I can't quite agree that choosing persona first is the way to go. I know way too many who chose their persona based on what armour that would have had.

Well, that's true, too... as long as that's actually what happens, rather than just some kludged-together lamellar monstrosity with no concern about it actually looking like something "they" would have worn.

Effingham

Well after combing through several Osprey books and copious websites my friend has decided to choose a Hoplite persona which had he done that earlier would have saved us a lot of trouble. We're going to try to create a "linothorax" and some shovel greaves with only our limited resources and our youthful ingenuity (i.e. trial and error.)

Cool!

I knew someone years (and YEARS) ago who made a real one out of many layers of linen and glue. It was VERY cool.


Effingham

Matt Amt has a page about the linothorax he made. Do a search on the AA and you should be able to find the link.