The Armour Archive

I've been working on a leather lammellar harness for myself. I've gotten a few hundred scales cut out and punched. Time to harden them a bit, since some a a little thin.

Now, I knew that I didn't want to get the water too hot or they would shrivel. Unfortunatly I forgot about it and it started to boil. No problem, I would let it cool for a few then dump in the leather.

After a few minutes I dropped in a couple of test pieces, so far so good. So I started dumping in handfulls of scales. It was after the third handfull that I noticed the shriveled little messes floating in the water. EEK!

After dumping them and cooling them off I now have about 200 scales and 50-75 hard lumps of...stuff. I may be able to salvage some of them, but shrinkage was around 60% on quite a few.

Been there (though I only cooked three lamellae), what a bitch. Those little lumps are hard enough to stop bullets though, aren't they? I've heard legends of people making indestructable leather armour by cutting the pieces too big, and shriveling them on purpose in boiling or near-boiling water until the pieces are the desirable size. I have no idea how this could be done with any consistency though.

~Wil

Very sorry to hear your plates got overcooked.

I think that the key to success in this project is a BIG pot of water and greater precision in temperature and time control. If I were thinking of hardening leather here are the steps I'd take.

1) Find the optimal temp./time for your desired result by experiment with scrap leather then plates.

2) roll a big pot of water to that temp (as tested by thermometer).

3) place a batch of x number of plates into a spagetti strainer small enough to be immersed into the pot.

4) .... Immerse it into the pot and use your stop watch to time how long to "cook your fries"

If it works for McDonalds to cook up 500 Million lbs (more or less) of crispy golden spuds (also more or less), I bet it'll work for your plates too.

Best of Luck,
Jordan
Dark Victory Armory

However, just like McDonald's fries, the leather will still get too crispy in some areas.

Hardening leather using hot water rarely has consistent results. The tannin in vegtable tanned leather congeals into an almost plastic substance when heated. This is what causes the bacon like appearance. The reason for the inconsistecy is that leather is an organic substance, (i.e.: the tannin fluid isn't distributed evenly throughout the leather, there are fat deposits in varying quantities throughout, etc...)

If you are still wanting to experiment with water hardening, I would suggest attempting to pre-heat the leather. Rapidly increasing the temp of leather causes the tannin to shrivel. Try pre-heating your oven to about 120 degrees, place the leather evenly on a clean cookie sheet and let it heat up gradually for about 15 to 20 minutes. When the leather is warm, approaching hot try the method with the thermometer and spaghetti strainer.

Hope this works for you. YMMV, but this works the best for me with my experiments.

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Uilleag O'Conmhaic
House of the Wolf Leather

i was just discussing this last week
what if you were to use raw hide
instead of tanned leather for the scales
anyone think this would work better???
have fun
chris

I've already replaced the scales. Though I had to sacrifice a couple of would be belts in the process.

As for using rawhide, I have no intention of cutting out 300 more of these little buggers and punching over 2000 more holes.

I've already replaced my hole punch as well.

I've tried water hardening before, with very mixed results. After numerous attempts I managed to get a vambrace that wasn't overly warped, but I wasted a lot of leather in the process. Do any of you have any tips or secrets when working with larger forms (vams, bazubands [sp?), knees, breast/back)?
I haven't tried the pre-heating yet--do you think that will be enough to avoid the shrinkage/warpage of a larger piece?

I love the results of water hardening, but I hate wasting leather. I'd like to think the cows died for a good cause

What about hardening the leather before you cut out the scales/lamellae? When I finally get a chance to make my helm, I will likely make leather lamellar aventail. Though, I may not harden mine at all, since it's really just decoration.

Kalba

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Barkalba bar Shalamsin
m.k.a. Jamie Szudy
LU2.DUB.SAR

Sorry for your loss. I've been there recently, then when I finally did get it to work well, one of the dogs ate my results, rivets and all.

Anyway, like Kalba suggested, boiling a larger peice, clamping flat, and then cutting out the scales is probably a better way to go. Boiling individual scales will produce very uneven results. Since you already have scales cut, reduce your boil time. If you are working at boiling or near boiling, you have to be very careful with your time in the water. 15 seconds is plenty, 30 seconds at an absolute maximum. After the boil you only have about 20-30 seconds to get it clamped or formed, so only work with a few peices at a time. I never do more than 2 similar moderate sized pieces at once.

Like others have said, do test pieces, record the water temp and the time in the water, see what you get.

Madyn, if I were you, I would use the slow dry method that hosekileather uses... http://www.armourarchive.org/ubb/Forum1/HTML/011087.html Unless you boil larger peices and cut the pattern from the shrunk leather. Boiling is just too unpredictable for large pieces.

Just an amateur, but those are my couple of pennies.

Ok, thanks for posting that cross thread. First of all the term Cuir boili comes from the word Boule which means to bake not boil.

When oh when will people learn that placing leather in boiling water will mess it up completely.

Second, if you plan to wax the leather, apply thin coats of 50/50 paraffin beeswax mix which is hot and liquid and not boiling. Apply with a natural bristle paint brush. Heat the leather on a piece of wood with a paint stripper and allow the wax to penetrate the leather. Stop. Repeat this process x 2.

Boiling leather in anything will just destroy it in the end. boiling it in wax will do the same thing just that the leather will be filled with wax and look like a piece of bacon.

Cut pattern at 100% and then wax your items.


Ok, water hardening does not involve boiling water.
soak your leather for 20 minutes in cool tap water. Wrap in a towel to dry for 10 minutes.

heat the oven to 200F and place the rack on the bottom. Place a wooden cutting board on the rack.

Put your armour in the oven and let it get up to temperature about 10 minutes. Take out, shape mold and sculpt it to where you want it. If parts articulate, attache them together with chicago screws. Replace in the oven. YOu want to slowly evaporate the moisture out of the leather. Too fast and it will curl up, slowly. SLLLLLLOWWWWWLLLLLY!

When the armour begins to take shape and is quite firm, but will feel damp to the touch, but rigid, remove from the oven. Allow to air dry overnight.

total oven time is about 40 minutes in 10 minute intervals with shaping and molding in between.


When oh when Lord will people learn...good luck with the process. Go slowwwwwwwwly.

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www.hosekileather.com

[This message has been edited by Warren (edited 07-01-2003).]

Warren,

Thanks for the lesson. People generally learn what they are taught, and speaking on behalf of amatuers everywhere, I can say we don't always have the best instruction/lessons, and often pick up whatever knowledge we have piecemeal, sometimes from suspect sources, and through good old fashioned trial and error. So it's nice to get input from someone who does this on a regular basis.

Thanks again!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Vladimir:
I may be able to salvage some of them, but shrinkage was around 60% on quite a few. [/B]</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I tried to explain shrinkage to my wife, but she doesn't believe me.....

Cris

Warren,

I started using "Cariadocs Miscellany" http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Medieval/Articles/Perfect_Armor_Improved.htm as a guide since it was one of the only set of instructions I could find (its linked all over the place). I've been working with your method for a couple of weeks now. It is much more predictable and manageable, and I don't end up with brittle and deformed chunks of leather. Thanks for posting it.

Warren,

I've been to your site and I've read your postings. I want to tell you that I think you have found one of the most consistent methods of hardening leather out there.

I have to agree, after several experiments of my own quickly heating the leather with any method, (water or wax), will consistently give you inconsistent results. I've stated this several times. Organic materials will never be a consistent medium like metal. Different metals will produce different results, but that is the difference between bronze, copper, nickle, steel, etc... Leather is skin. Whether it comes from a cow, a goat or a pig or any other animal, it is organic. It isn't uniform in thickness, fat deposits, density, or most importantly tannin fluid consintrations.

Slow heat is the key. The method I use is fairly simular to yours, and I have posted it here once or twice.

Water hardening will stand up to hot climates better than wax, but the results are still less consistent. At least that is what I have found. I'm thinking of trying to find a reasonable carnuba wax supplier if I can and add that to the mixture. Beeswax has an entirely to low of a softening point down here in Georgia, and other southern climes. I am currently using a 100% parriffin technique, coupled with the use of an oven at extremley low heat. My results have been very good so far. What I end up with is very minimal shrinkage, say no more than 1/8th of an inch over all, and an end product that has the feel of hard wood. The leather doesn't crack or deteriate, at least not so far. (I've been using the same rig for about three years now and have not had any problems with cracking). Slowly heating the leather was the key to this success.

There are some things that just can't be rushed. Hardening leather is one of those things. Be patient, do not try to mass produce pieces. A few at atime so that you can controal the heat they are exposed to and the length of time that it is exposed. Low heat....if it doesn't burn you, it won't burn the leather. I'm not saying try it on your hand or whatever, I'm saying that if you wouldn't want it to touch you, you probably shouldn't use it on your leather...unless of course you like the smell of burnt leather with the texture of bacon bits! LOL

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Uilleag O'Conmhaic
House of the Wolf Leather

My way of doing things came from the leather workers in Florence, Italy. They would soak the leather in water and mould it over forms and allow it to dry into the shape they wanted. Ever heard of Florentine boxes? Double curves an not a straight line to be had. The technique is the same.

I learned it a few years ago and have been doing it ever since. I can make the Florentine box. A 6x6" box takes 30 hours of work.

Armour is much less as its usually only two sided. Boxes are cubes and wow is it difficult. Even David Nicolle writes about it in "Crusader Knight" and I quote ....

"Cuir Boilli was widely used as a lighter alternative to iron. It was not "boiled leather" which would have simply been soft,(or crystallized in the modern sense) but had been shaped and hardened by a method similar to modern blocking(Florentine Box). In this process oil(tried it, doesnt work) softens the leather before shaping, though the leather might have also been softened by prolonged immersion in cold water.(this is the one called "Casing" the leather) Hardening was done by heating and drying in moulds.(ask any harness or saddle maker) The term bouilli came from "boulue" which itself a surface waterproofing process using molten wax." pp. 31

Hope it helps. Pardon my commentary, but I have a bug about this.

Fortescu, you are on your own on that one.

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www.hosekileather.com

[This message has been edited by Warren (edited 07-01-2003).]

Warren,

I'm about to start working on some leather lamellar. Thinking about hardening it, using water casing and my oven.

My lamellar pieces wn't require any shaping. I just want to harden them. Would you just place those in the oven for 40 minutes? Or still use 10 minutes, with several minutes in between to keep the whole process slow?

You can heat scales slowly by keeping the oven door open just a touch. Regularly check the pieces, lay them on the wooden cutting board. When they are starting to dry, you are on the way. After they begin to feel ridgid, take em out of the the oven and let them air dry overnight. They will be hard, and light. Then wax or lacqer them if you want according to my earlier instructions.

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www.hosekileather.com