Help with Kolontar

[Urdok]

I'm planning on trying my hand at making a suit of Kolontar this winter/spring. I have some experiance working maile (though butted, not the rivited I want to use) and leather. My plan currently is to use 3/8ths rivited maile with 18 gauge plates. I've been able to pick up some tips from searching old threads, such as use oval punches rather than circle ones to help the maile lie flat, but I'd like some additional advice. What I'm roughly aiming for is the kit of the gentleman on the left:



I need advice on a few things, in particular the joints between the maile and the plates, and how to attach spaulders to it. I'm also planning on making the suit a "pull over" suit, so any advice in that regards is welcome as well. Thanks in advance.

[Norman]

Not entirely sure how to help in writing (would probably take 5 minutes showing in person). Is there any particular issues you're having?

I think the Spaulders should be pointed to it (ie: lace a thong through the maile and have a leather tab on the spaulder)
Though if you wanted to ... what I did on mine http://www.geocities.com/normlaw/myarmour.html was to attach a tab of maile and then connect the spaulder to the maile.

Um again, not sure how to advise on attaching the plates except to see alot of this sort of armour (not necessarily Kolontar - but any armour with similar maile and plate lacing). If you're anywhere near New York, get yourself to the Met - there are a few Turk and Indian suits you can stare at.

For what its worth, here's a photo of my coif:
http://www.geocities.com/normlaw/page13c.html

Oh - I think the reconstructor in that photo is wrong if it is a "pullover"
I think the Kolontar should be a wraparound vest design (buckled at the left underarm and shoulder) worn over a separate hauberk.

[Urdok]

For what its worth, here's a photo of my coif:
http://www.geocities.com/normlaw/page13c.html

Oh - I think the reconstructor in that photo is wrong if it is a "pullover"
I think the Kolontar should be a wraparound vest design (buckled at the left underarm and shoulder) worn over a separate hauberk.

I am near-ish to NYC, so I will make sure to check out those armours at the Met before I get going on the project. Right now I'm still in the information gathering phase. As for how the Kolontar is strapped/worn, I assumed it was "pull over" (though I know they ought to be strapped) because I couldn't figure out how the to do the sleeves on it otherwise, and I would like my suit to have maile sleeves, like the gentleman on the left in this picture:



If you could give me any advice on how something like that might be strapped, it would be greatly appreciated, and thank you for having that site up. It was a great aid to me getting my ideas together.

[Norman]

Well,
noting first for the record that I believe it is not accurate to have the sleeves in one with the Kolontar (the sleeves, and the skirts, should be part of a hauberk worn underneath -- then the Kolontar can be a simple breast and back or poncho) nevertheless -- here are a few ideas --

1) Do it as a regular coat which buckles at the front - this is consistant with alot of Yushman and Turkish Bekhter coats. And its easiest to put on. But its certainly NOT what the guy in the pic has.

2) It could be that his is buckled in back. One of the Osprey books on Timurids shows a McBride picture with a Brigandine fastened that way - but I've never seen this done in Eastern originals. And you'd need a friend to help you on with it.

3) The problem with pullover is that maile is quite stretchy. Plate is not. You could put a generous amount of maile in the underarm areas -- till you get enough to pull it over your head. But aestheticaly - you could wind up with it "pouching". All I can say on this is - experiment.

4) An alternative to that is to have slits under the armpit for the height of the plate girdle. Put straps and buckles there. So, after you pull on the coat, you buckle the underarm gaps closed.

3a + 4a) Combining the above two ideas, you can have a generous amount of maile at the underarms as well as a strap and buckle. After you pull on the armour, just fold the maile on itself and strap together. This will give you three layers of maile at the sides -- a nicely protected cushion, and will save the trim aesthetic.

5) If you just want to avoid wearing two armours, you could make maile plastrons (just sleeves and underarms) strap those underneath with cross-straps (or alternatively, a maile "bollero" jacket) and put a poncho Kolontar (with straps under the arms) over that. This sort of "arms only" maile is shown by Mikhail Gorelik in a number of illustrations of Russo-Turkic warriors -- worn as a suplement to lamellar.

[Urdok]

After speaking with a friend regarding the problem of the sleeves (and I would really prefer this to be a single piece, not a hauberk with a covering), he suggested that the sleeves be open down the middle/bottom then strapped closed at 2-3 points on the arm. That would allow the sides to buckle and make putting on the thing much easier. Basically taking idea 4 and having the entire side open. Your opinion on that idea?

[Derian le Breton]

I've took a bunch of photos of Ottoman and Mameluke suits when I went to Istanbul. You can see them here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/derianlebr ... 245951449/

-Donasian.

[Norman]

After speaking with a friend regarding the problem of the sleeves (and I would really prefer this to be a single piece, not a hauberk with a covering), he suggested that the sleeves be open down the middle/bottom then strapped closed at 2-3 points on the arm. That would allow the sides to buckle and make putting on the thing much easier. Basically taking idea 4 and having the entire side open. Your opinion on that idea?

:SHRUG:
I don't like your friend's solution because it defeats the purpose of maile sleeves - you wind up creating a needless vulnerability where you've slit them open.
Personaly, If I were going with a single coat, I would make it a proper coat - ie: open in front, maybe flap over for extra protection with straps and buckes in the front.
But if you insist on the pullover style, I think my proposed 3a/4a option is cleanest. Though it may require a little bit of experimentation.