1330's Knight Gaston's sugarloaf & harness progress pict

Baron Alcyoneus · Post by **Baron Alcyoneus** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 8:03 am

I used to cross strap my floating knees (in an X), and found that it helped to keep them in place. Part of the straps were above the meat of the calf, keeping it from slipping as much.

Ken Mondschein · Post by **Ken Mondschein** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:00 am

Chris Gilman wrote:Then the splinted cuisse is strapped on and pointed at the hip. In my test this seems to work well, as the cuisse and schynbald pivot away from the polyne and back when the leg is bent.

Does this leave a gap if you bend your leg in a modern or medieval riding position?

-Ken

Vladimir · Post by **Vladimir** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:26 am

Chris Gilman wrote:
Effingham wrote:Chris, as I look at the leg more, I find myself wondering...

With the cuisse OVER the knee, unless the knee is really tall, won't the knee "eat up" the dangling leather the first time you bend your knee and then straighten it?

Effingham
The knee cop is fitted to the leg and the top edge of the cop is sewn to the padded hose, so there isn't an edge or opening for the leather to catch on.
Most of the "floating knees" I see posted are too loose, I believe that they need to be smaller and closer to the leg, if fitted properly, they don't flop around at all, they just stay on the cap of the knee.

Perhaps this is because of the SCA's tendency to fight from the knees.

Effingham · Post by **Effingham** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:04 pm

Chris Gilman wrote: The knee cop is fitted to the leg and the top edge of the cop is sewn to the padded hose, so there isn't an edge or opening for the leather to catch on.
Most of the "floating knees" I see posted are too loose, I believe that they need to be smaller and closer to the leg, if fitted properly, they don't flop around at all, they just stay on the cap of the knee.

Ah, cool. I missed that the coptop (heh) was sewn to the hose. That would neatly eliminate the issue.

Man, I love this thing.

Chris Gilman · Post by **Chris Gilman** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:57 pm

Ken Mondschein wrote:
Chris Gilman wrote:Then the splinted cuisse is strapped on and pointed at the hip. In my test this seems to work well, as the cuisse and schynbald pivot away from the polyne and back when the leg is bent.
Does this leave a gap if you bend your leg in a modern or medieval riding position?

-Ken

Yes, but so must have the period examples, as it would be impossible for them not to. It seem that this gap was backed up with mail chauces, but not always visibly. So it is unclear if this area was always covered with mail or not. The Leverick effigy seems to have only fabric behind the knee, no visible mail. The mail could also be between layers of fabric as I understand happened with other germents.

Chris Gilman · Post by **Chris Gilman** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:00 pm

Vladimir wrote:
Chris Gilman wrote:
Effingham wrote:Chris, as I look at the leg more, I find myself wondering...

With the cuisse OVER the knee, unless the knee is really tall, won't the knee "eat up" the dangling leather the first time you bend your knee and then straighten it?

Effingham
The knee cop is fitted to the leg and the top edge of the cop is sewn to the padded hose, so there isn't an edge or opening for the leather to catch on.
Most of the "floating knees" I see posted are too loose, I believe that they need to be smaller and closer to the leg, if fitted properly, they don't flop around at all, they just stay on the cap of the knee.
Perhaps this is because of the SCA's tendency to fight from the knees.

Hmmm, I would think that fighting from you knees would point you in the direction of closer and better fitting polyen's than looser ones. No, I think it is more likely poor tailoring, a problem with most SCA garments and armour.

Vladimir · Post by **Vladimir** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:11 pm

Occam's razor would suggest you are correct.

Tristan vom Schwarzwald · Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:41 pm

/me waves hand

You do not wish to keep this armour.

You wish to give it to me...

Raising the bar? It is now somewhere between Mars and Jupiter...

Ken Mondschein · Post by **Ken Mondschein** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:03 pm

Vladimir wrote:Occam's razor would suggest you are correct.

And, indeed, this armor is contemporary with Occam.

Chris Gilman · Post by **Chris Gilman** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 7:12 pm

I thought I would post progress pictures and some "how to" bits.
I have decided to make scale vambraces for my 1340's suit. Based on this effigy.

The scales are made from 1075 spring, no reason 1075 over 1050, other than I had some .025" 1075 I wasn't going to use for other things.

In the picture below, on the left you see some pliers; these were modified blacksmithing pliers I got at auction. I made a "horseshoe" shaped piece from mild steel for the bottom and inset a ridge piece in the top, then lined them up and welded them to the pliers. (I found out after I started they are most likely iron, as they do not TIG weld terribly well.) Across the top are the different stages of the scale construction.
1. I sheared the basic tapered scale blank with a kick shear.
2. Then holding the scale blank in the ridge pliers, gave it a whack with a rawhide mallet on the anvil.
3. I have a Â¼ round punch used to clip corners and itâ€™s about a Â½â€

Galvyn Lockhart · Post by **Galvyn Lockhart** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 7:34 pm

Hi Chris -

Once again, very cool.

I've often looked upon that same effigy and wondered.

Well, I wonder no longer.

Hope to see you in this rig at the COTT this year.

lorenzo2 · Post by **lorenzo2** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:32 pm

Chris,
The contrasting colors on these is very nice. What is your interpretation of the scales on the effigy with no central ridge? What I think is shown on the effigy, some flat and some with ridge does not make sense. Was the there just no more room on the small area of the detail?

Gethin · Post by **Gethin** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:01 am

Chris-
Two questions for you; I notice in the close up of the vambrace that there
is a alternation between "ridged" scales and "unridged" scales. Will you be
doing the same with your vambraces?
Secondly, are you done yet? I have been looking forward to seeing the finished product, and there is just over a week till Pensic!
Come on man, give me a fix! Please? Pretty please??!! <whimper>

Chris Gilman · Post by **Chris Gilman** » Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:25 pm

Gethin,
Sorry I finished these up a while ago, but was not happy with them for this armour. I like how they came out, but they are not right for this suit. I will shoot some pictures this weekend and post them. I did not alternate the scales, as it looked to me as if the non-ribbed scales where just a result of the etching wearing out, because there did not seem to be a set patterns to the ribbed and unribbed scales.

Gethin · Post by **Gethin** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 1:19 am

Chris,
I see what you mean.
I look forward to you posting the pictures!

Chris Gilman · Post by **Chris Gilman** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 10:14 pm

Here are the vambraces. I like them but they are not right for this armour.
I will use these for an early Kastenbust I want to do that has a scale skirt.

Here is a test finger I made for the guantlets for this 1340's harrness.

I really was planning to have this completed by Pennsic this year, but it wasn't to be. Next year, or Estrella.

lorenzo2 · Post by **lorenzo2** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:38 am

Nice, the color combination on those adds a lot to the overall impression.

mattmaus · Post by **mattmaus** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:12 pm

Chris,

Maybe you allready answered this and I just didn't see it.

How thick is the copper work on the helmet(s)?

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 11:54 am

Hello Chris.

I would like to see more pictures about the legs and the components that make them up.

I am in the middle of making my own harness to get back in fighting. I am making gamboised cuisses as the foundation of my leg harness.

Here is what I was considering wearing, from the inside out:

1) cloth hose
2) shoes
2) maille chausses
3) gamboised cuisse
4) knee cop pointed to gamboised cuisse, strapped behind knee.
5) splinted greave
6) Possible splinted cuisse

It sounds as if you are only having maille over the lower leg. Why did you choose to do it this way?

Steve

maverick666 · Post by **maverick666** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:37 pm

this is amazing thank you for sharing

audax · Post by **audax** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:56 pm

I feel faint.

Chris Gilman · Post by **Chris Gilman** » Sun Aug 09, 2009 7:13 am

Sorry for not replying, just returned from Pennsic, had a great time.

Mattmaus,
The copper on the helm is .030â€

mattmaus · Post by **mattmaus** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 11:20 pm

Chris Gilman wrote:Sorry for not replying, just returned from Pennsic, had a great time.

No worries. I realized that you were probably at, or on your way there shortly after I hit the submit button.

Thanks very much for the info!

I found this at my local library while searching the 740's for something all together different.

Pretty cool stuff, but she works in very thin material (0.005-0.008)

Gerhard von Liebau · Post by **Gerhard von Liebau** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 11:19 am

Chris, good fellow, you seem to make it as it is. If offered only pen and paper, I can think of none who could more splendidly interpret armor with such grace as you when building it in the flesh. And what's more, this stands true in the most intricate and overlooked of matters.

-G. Liebau

Chris Gilman · Post by **Chris Gilman** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 5:45 pm

Chris Gilman · Post by **Chris Gilman** » Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:50 pm

After taking some time off of this project, I have an update.
This is going to be 1340â€™s English armour. The idea is to attach the mail to shoes and hose. The hose are slightly padded and made from linen dyed to this red from natural linen. The â€œSâ€

Eamonn MacCampbell · Post by **Eamonn MacCampbell** » Thu Nov 26, 2009 1:32 pm

#*&)?: Chris//)^*@# Gilman*&@)*+:"#@!*&/>!!!!

Now that I have that out of the way..

Damn ,Chris, thats gonna be one hell of a fine looking outfit....I think I need to go find a corner and cry a bit....

D. Sebastian · Post by **D. Sebastian** » Thu Nov 26, 2009 6:26 pm

NICE!

..off to change my pants!

Vitus von Atzinger · Post by **Vitus von Atzinger** » Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:32 pm

This kit has reached the point of ridiculousness. I am astounded.

Gaston Le Chauve · Post by **Gaston Le Chauve** » Thu Nov 26, 2009 9:19 pm

damnit...I'm gonna have to change my name cause I'm just not worthy....

If you ever feel like doing some pro bono work...give me a call....

Carnifex- · Post by **Carnifex-** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 5:26 am

This update is fantastic. But I have a further question. I always thought in that time they still wore complete cuasses of mail. Yout interpretation looks interesting though. How did you come to the conclusion to basically make a boot to the hip, with the lower section of leather covered in maile and the upper of padded cloth.

Chris Gilman · Post by **Chris Gilman** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 9:58 am

All of the effigies I looked at from this period have the mail very neat an orderly around the ankle as well as the entire leg. My experience seems to indicate that unsupported mail doesnâ€™t behave in a way the effigies and artwork of the period seem to depict. Mail supported by a foundation (cloth or leather) seems to behave in a more consistent manner with artwork of the period. (I have had people argue that mail sewn to fabric will rust and rot the fabric, but I have over a dozen arming coats with mail sewn to them, some 15 years old and they are holding up fine. )
Other reference seems to indicate padded cloth defenses were worn under mail. Leather under mail seems more robust and in areas around the foot and ankle that are more vulnerable, a boot makes more sense than cloth for the lower leg. But behind the knee more flexibility is required. Given I have found no way to make mail behave in convenient and orderly manner without a foundation, it seemed to me the best solution, if I were making these at the time, was a boot sewn to a padded cloth upper leg. Lacing it up the front keeps the mail tight and orderly around the ankles, offers great support and lacing is covered by the greave. So it was a hypothesis I thought I would use on this set and so far I am very happy with the results. If I was a better shoemaker and a better tailor of mail, they would be much better. I there are perhaps many â€œtricksâ€

Vitus von Atzinger · Post by **Vitus von Atzinger** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 12:40 pm

Chris is right- look at the effigies; every one that has shynbalds has tailored mail on the calf. To get an accurate look you can go with full greaves and put a patch of mail behind the knee.

Jiri Klepac · Post by **Jiri Klepac** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 1:12 pm

Hey Chris,

I have visited this thread for the first time as 1330 is not my cup of tea usually

, but hat off for the work you did. I love the models you work on, greaves too, but most of all the boots and their maille. This is marvellous. congratulations! I think I have never seen such a nice and well fitting maille on the legs. Ever.

Jiri

Jehan de Pelham · Post by **Jehan de Pelham** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 1:34 pm

I missed this the first time around, but I had to take a moment to laud the effort and excellence of execution accomplished in this endeavor.

Mr. Gilman, this is impressive.

Best,

John