The Armour Archive

I understand that other metals besides steel can be used in the construction of helms. Is there anyone out there making faceplates in brass, copper or bronze?

Not for SCA use, as they require steel for the main structure. Other metals set upon the steel are okay.

I understand it to read that other metals can be used as long as they are equivilant in strength to 18 g steel. But i could be reading incorrectly

nkante wrote:I understand it to read that other metals can be used as long as they are equivilant in strength to<s>18 g</s> steel. But i could be reading incorrectly

it is closer to 16Ga but you have to go to a minimum of 15 ga to allow for any thinning.
iirc the required thickness id .0625

are you still wanting to do something like this?


if you are I would say start with a heavier base metal so you have sufficient mass after doing the basket weave

nkante wrote:I understand it to read that other metals can be used as long as they are equivilant in strength to 18 g steel. But i could be reading incorrectly

You are 100% correct that alternate metals can be used that provide equivalent protection. But not equivalent to 18 gauge steel, that is way too light. In the East, 16 gauge is the minimum and frankly that dents real fast here, most are 14 gauge or better (mine is 12 gauge stainless).

To use something besides steel, the trick is to find someone that can make something that is safe in another material and then to convince the SCA marshal inspecting the helm that it meets the SCA standards. And frankly you want to be sure they really are: make something out of a too brittle alloy, especially in a cast piece that does not come out quite right, and really horrible catastrophic failures can occur. Especially if you are trying to avoid making it super thick/heavy.

That is why many people just make a steel helm and then overlay it with decorative pieces, to be sure they don't get hurt.

But it is possible.

The specific current requirements on a society level are below.

I'm glad to see someone trying to do something historically accurate in alternate metals, just be careful. Good luck.

Richard Blackmoore

"B. Helms
1. Helms shall be constructed from steel which has a thickness of no less than .0625 inch (1/16 inch or 1.6mm), or of equivalent material. Alternative materials, such as stainless steel, brass, bronze, or like materials, are permissible as long as the material is structurally equivalent to 0.0625-inch-thick steel. The mass of the helm is an important part of the protection. As such, no titanium, fiberglass, aluminum, or other ultra-light materials may be used. If a spun-metal top is to be used in the construction of the helm, it shall be a minimum of 0.0747 inch (14-gauge) steel. The process of spinning the top thins the metal, thereby requiring a heavier gauge.
2. All joints or seams shall be constructed in one or a combination of the following ways, with all welds sound and rivets secure:
a. Welded on the inside and outside.
b. Welded with a single bead that extends through both surfaces.
c. Lap joints welded or brazed at the edges of both pieces.
d. Helms will be riveted with iron or steel rivets no more than 2½ inches (63.5 mm) apart, or with equivalent riveting techniques. Screw- and pop-type rivets, along with other lightweight rivets, are not to be used."

No. I want to look just like these guys with the croc tops and full face plate. But i want it in bronze, just like the plaque, so it matches my skin tone. Maybe I'm asking too much and should just get it done in steel and have it treated to look like bronze.

Talk to Gaston (Gilman). He's done a lot of repousse type work and might have ideas as to how to do something like what you want, but in a material that will hold up longer than gilt copper.

Richard Blackmoore

P.S. Take a look at the sugarloaf thread on this board to see the kind of work he can do in high relief.

one could always braze over a steel face plate

Brian

Sounds like Brian has the same idea.

nkante wrote:No. I want to look just like these guys with the croc tops and full face plate. But i want it in bronze, just like the plaque, so it matches my skin tone. Maybe I'm asking too much and should just get it done in steel and have it treated to look like bronze.

I'm not familiar with the original armour depicted in the plaque. Are you sure those are metal and not crocodile hide & natural materials?

If the later, you could have a metal helm made, with the face constructed similar to the faceplate/mempo of a Samurai's helm (Photo's of Nissan Maximus' and others are on this archve) and simply use real croc or alligator hide on top of a steel helm for a realistic look and construction, with SCA levels of protection.

I don't know how well the alligator or croc would hold up, but it would be unique and badass.

And piss of PETA, which always makes my heart warm.

Richard Blackmoore

Historically it was croc hide over twisted fiber. I'll do anything to piss off PETA. But I want to use metal simulating croc skin with a nice bump pattern. I used faux gator over my current helm but it doesnt have the impact I want it to. Plus it gets messed up alot. I want to look like i stepped of the plaque. I was contemplating the mempo idea. Brazing, is that heating the steel until it turns color?

nkante, I didn't post earlier, but an intentional russeting, done carefully, seemed to me like it'd work pretty well. If you want the blackish croc color, you might have to take it slightly further, but in principal, this seems like the way to go. Having worn a lot of LH helms that were just fine getting whanged on by guys with swords and sabres but in which I'd be TERRIFIED to play in an SCA context...the idea of a brass underframe makes me cringe.

Silicon Bronze is what you want. Its not cheap, but it can be hardened and tempered like 1050 medium carbon steel.

I have also heard that aluminum bronze can work too....

nkante wrote:Historically it was croc hide over twisted fiber. I'll do anything to piss off PETA. But I want to use metal simulating croc skin with a nice bump pattern. I used faux gator over my current helm but it doesnt have the impact I want it to. Plus it gets messed up alot. I want to look like i stepped of the plaque. I was contemplating the mempo idea. Brazing, is that heating the steel until it turns color?

Brazing would be heating a brass rod until molten and flowing it over the surface of the metal.

I have examined a helm made from silicon bronze. Navy fellow who had access to some heavy duty marine materials and the shop for working them. Probably the single heaviest helm I've ever handled. Perfectly legal for SCA.

While I think your helm could be made entirely from bronze and be quite safe and legal for SCA, I am willing to bet that it would be much more cost effective to have an armourer build a steel helm and layer the brass/bronze over it. Partly materials cost and partly a matter of familiarity with the materials.

nkante wrote:Historically it was croc hide over twisted fiber. I'll do anything to piss off PETA. But I want to use metal simulating croc skin with a nice bump pattern. I used faux gator over my current helm but it doesnt have the impact I want it to. Plus it gets messed up alot. I want to look like i stepped of the plaque. I was contemplating the mempo idea. Brazing, is that heating the steel until it turns color?

No, brazing is an means of attaching two different types of metals together. Like glorified super strong solder. A definition from the web is:

"Brazing is a process for joining similar or dissimilar metals using a filler metal that typically includes a base of copper combined with silver, nickel, zinc or phosphorus. Brazing covers a temperature range of 900ºF - 2200ºF (470ºC - 1190ºC). Brazing differs from welding in that brazing does not melt the base metals, therefore brazing temperatures are lower than the melting points of the base metals. For the same reason, brazing is a superior choice in joining dissimilar metals. Brazed joints are strong. A properly-made joint (like a welded joint) will in many cases be as strong or stronger than the based metals being joined. Typically brazing is employed in manufacturing compressors, diesel engine circulation tubes, mining tools, plumbing fixtures, jewelry, musical instruments, refrigerators, condensers, and automotive applications."

You might be thinking of 'bronzing', such as the bronzing of baby shoes or other sentimental items, there are various processes for that, I don't know if they would work well or hold up well for SCA armour.

Brazing can be used to attach some sort of cast or fabricated decorative metal covering to a steel helm as others have suggested, to get the effect you want, while having the simple design and safety of a steel helm.

An alternative might be to try real croc or alligator hide. It might hold up better than faux gator and look just like the images from the plaque. I'm not sure if you want one processed with a particular tanning process that would avoid unduly softening or weakening the hide, I don't know enough about croc/gator tanning.

As far as coloring other parts of the helm not hidden by the croc, there are a variety of treatments you can use including plating, anodizing, staining and blueing that might work, including antiquing products. Others on this board can give you better advice as to what might give you a bronze appearance that would hold up. Or you could cover those areas with a thin later of bronze or brass rivetted or brazed on as well.

Real crocodile and alligator hides (tanned) are available from:
http://genuineostrichhides.com/?gclid=C ... GgoduVWOeA

or

http://www.alligatormarket.com/?gclid=C ... swodDU_BdQ

While I'm not a fan of exotic personas in the SCA in many cases as too many turn into comic book parodies or an excuse to wear pajamas as faux animal skin, I find your approach to have been exemplary. More who select exotic personas should follow your lead, in trying to 'do it right and accurately'. If I can be of any help, do not hesitate to let me know.

Sir Richard Blackmoore
KSCA East

You might talk to Knotwolf - the guy has done some AMAZING finishes on helms.


.

I would love to see a hoplite done in bronze for sca combat.

do the helm in mild and then get it plated. or do it in a silicon bronze- there are a few that are very strong.

g-

DukeAlaric (George S.) wrote:do the helm in mild and then get it plated. or do it in a silicon bronze- there are a few that are very strong.

g-

This is definitely a worthwhile idea...there is also heat-colouring the steel. I heat coloured my entire helm a sapphire blue by sticking it in a kiln at around 570 degrees for twenty minutes. I've also coloured a set of finger bucklers to a Copper tone by heat treating it at around 500 degrees fir twenty minutes.

I've seen some stainless that was cooked in an oven and turned sort of bronze-ish. Jarl Thjo's helmet might have been by Knotwolf, I'm not sure.

We do stainless at 800F for a golden tone faceplate on helmets. Doenst need to soak, just bring it up to that temperature in a kiln and cool it.

Pretty durable and easy to ring the color back, just cycle it again at temperature.

What about taking a skin, making a helm and having it cast, or take a mould, make a wax and have that cast, it will then look very much like the real thing.

The real thing must have been good in the first place or they would not have used it, but I don't know the rules so I guess it wouldn't pass?

I have had some elephant hide, that is about and inch thick, guess that would make good but very heavy armour!

Or what about making a steel helmet then having made a mould of the skin, make a cast from polyurethane and cover it with that, it should take a lot of punishment before needing replacement?

Domnall wrote:I would love to see a hoplite done in bronze for sca combat.

Well the closest I have seen is the brass trim on Brand-made Corinthians.

There is a newer generation of high quality paint sprays that cure quite evenly. I am using some on my "bronze" shield, and ever over fabric they give quite extraordinary results. They only concern I'd have is wear, as helmets get hit a lot and they rarely have their own separate bags, so they may get scratched while rubbed with other pieces of armour.

As of the croc plates, Nkante could use the method used by Sir Raymond in his "Vendel" helmet:

and


Though having handled this helmet, I found it too heavy for me. But then you could use thinner plates of hammered brass as opposed to cast brass plates.
As for the croc plates, you could use niello over fire-darkened stainlless lamellar plates..

This projct may need the cooperation of several armorers with different skills, but in the end it would be quite stunning.

Rowan

I saw this helm in the Estrella Pictures thread on the combat board. You could do something like this in terms of the shaped plate parts and then color it.

front view:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jeff-godfrey/3287232110/

rear view:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jeff-godfrey/3286415649/