Leatherworker Question

[Odd]

Titebond III is NOT waterproof, just very resistant.

Catastrophic delamination of a few composite wood bows has taught me that. Humidity long after the glue has set can affect it if it is not properly sealed, or resealed with proper maintenance. Carrying a "natural" bow in the woods, it starts raining.. delam. Dry weather, foolish friend drops the bow in a creek, leaves it there til he comes back an hour later.. then strings it.. delam.

seal the whole bow in fiberglass... MAGIC!. No more delamination.

So I tested in controlled conditions. If allowed to soak in to joints, the glue will weaken, and delaminate. If kept dry, the wood will break before the glue line gives. Often the break following the penetration of the glue into the wood. Control joint fiberglassed and dunked in water for 3 days gave me the finger while not budging. And this was single layer of glass cloth.

While leather armor will not likely produce shrapnel if the glue saturates, it's still good to know the limitations of the materials.

[RenJunkie]

If you're treating your armour like that, ur doing it wrong. Step out of the river, take shelter from the rain and you'll be fine.

The stresses on armour are not what they are on bows, and you're not actually using it to glue anything together. Titebond 3 is essentially waterproof for this application.

I think fiberglassing your armour might be a bit much. And if you're allergic to the stuff, it would be a very bad idea.

See Duke Gavin's info on floor wax sealing for armour.

Christopher

[Odd]

You missed the entire point.

Titebond is NOT waterproof. It is resistant, but has limitations. Such as sweating in it all day, ignoring a light rain because you think your armor is waterproof.. all that jazz.

[Kilkenny]

Titebond III is NOT waterproof, just very resistant.

Catastrophic delamination of a few composite wood bows has taught me that. Humidity long after the glue has set can affect it if it is not properly sealed, or resealed with proper maintenance. Carrying a "natural" bow in the woods, it starts raining.. delam. Dry weather, foolish friend drops the bow in a creek, leaves it there til he comes back an hour later.. then strings it.. delam.

seal the whole bow in fiberglass... MAGIC!. No more delamination.

So I tested in controlled conditions. If allowed to soak in to joints, the glue will weaken, and delaminate. If kept dry, the wood will break before the glue line gives. Often the break following the penetration of the glue into the wood. Control joint fiberglassed and dunked in water for 3 days gave me the finger while not budging. And this was single layer of glass cloth.

While leather armor will not likely produce shrapnel if the glue saturates, it's still good to know the limitations of the materials.

Waterproof - Passes ANSI/HPVA Type I Specification.

I don't know what that specification says, a quick search found it available for a fee, but no quick and easy freebie source.

But, according to the standard used in the lumber industry, the stuff is waterproof. Exactly how that translates into real world application, I would not try to say.

My personal experience with it in a leather hardening context - unlike hide glue, it does not dissolve in water and ooze out on the surface. That's "waterproof" for my application

[Kilkenny]

You missed the entire point.

Titebond is NOT waterproof. It is resistant, but has limitations. Such as sweating in it all day, ignoring a light rain because you think your armor is waterproof.. all that jazz.

You related your experience with Titebond III in the making of laminated bows.

Do you have similar negative experience with it in use in hardened leather armour, or are you extrapolating, based on your bow experience ?

[Konstantin the Red]

Wait, what's he trying to do cooking thinned Titebond in the first place?

mm.. Konstantin, are you ok ? Because you've read the numerous threads where this has been discussed in detail, I'm quite sure you've commented in them before.

I had understood the baking process to involve water only, and nothing mixed in with it. And that the Titebond solution went on afterwards.

[Odd]

You missed the entire point.

Titebond is NOT waterproof. It is resistant, but has limitations. Such as sweating in it all day, ignoring a light rain because you think your armor is waterproof.. all that jazz.

You related your experience with Titebond III in the making of laminated bows.

Do you have similar negative experience with it in use in hardened leather armour, or are you extrapolating, based on your bow experience ?

Little of both. I've used it in several situations, including as a solution for sealing the grips on bows. If you use it warm on moist leather, it shrinks down onto the bow nice and tight. The grips will become gummy if you leave them moist, and peel off of the wood. This, combined with the delamination of the limbs caused by moisture led me to sealing bows with a thin layer of glass, and using proper means of doing the grips on the bows.

Now, in armor, I have never used it. Acrylic works better. I was extrapolating my experience with "Water is Water, leather is Leather" mentality.

And for me, waterproof means, well.. not affected by water. If I seal something with silicone, water doesn't mess with it. If I use a polymer, same thing. I don't give much of a damn what the specs for the material say, if I find them to be less than accurate. "Waterproof except when exposed to water" doesn't mean too much to me.

Now, if somebody is going to take care of the armor. Proper maintenance and whatnot, then the titebond hardening could very well never produce any weeping.

[Kilkenny]

You missed the entire point.

Titebond is NOT waterproof. It is resistant, but has limitations. Such as sweating in it all day, ignoring a light rain because you think your armor is waterproof.. all that jazz.

You related your experience with Titebond III in the making of laminated bows.

Do you have similar negative experience with it in use in hardened leather armour, or are you extrapolating, based on your bow experience ?

Little of both. I've used it in several situations, including as a solution for sealing the grips on bows. If you use it warm on moist leather, it shrinks down onto the bow nice and tight. The grips will become gummy if you leave them moist, and peel off of the wood. This, combined with the delamination of the limbs caused by moisture led me to sealing bows with a thin layer of glass, and using proper means of doing the grips on the bows.

Now, in armor, I have never used it. Acrylic works better. I was extrapolating my experience with "Water is Water, leather is Leather" mentality.

And for me, waterproof means, well.. not affected by water. If I seal something with silicone, water doesn't mess with it. If I use a polymer, same thing. I don't give much of a damn what the specs for the material say, if I find them to be less than accurate. "Waterproof except when exposed to water" doesn't mean too much to me.

Now, if somebody is going to take care of the armor. Proper maintenance and whatnot, then the titebond hardening could very well never produce any weeping.

Are you certain you were using Titebond III ?

I have used both Titebond III and acrylic, in various combinations and applications relating to hardening leather.

Titebond III has never wept, oozed, or otherwise shown any misbehaviour in my experience. This includes having it out on display in the rain next to pieces made using hide glue, both sealed with the same acrylic polish. The hide glue obviously rose to the surface, making the pieces slimy and giving a visible gray coat over the finish. The Titebond III pieces showed nominal discoloration of the leather due to water penetrating the acrylic, but no sign of glue running, oozing, etc.

I invite any of my clients who have been using armour I made using Titebond III to add any of their experiences regarding how the armour I made them has fared in sweat, rain, etc.

[Odd]

Oh, btw..

The ANSI/HPVA Type I and Type II water-resistance specifications are for the joining and testing the structural integrity of birch plywood in boiling and drying cycles.

Simulates weathering of wood joints. It saturates the superficial layer of wood before curing, in theory creating a bond that is always stronger than the wood. Most of the time, this is true. I've had 30hours into a bow experiences with it enough times to make me not trust it alone.

Titebond themselves admit it isn't actually water proof. However, it can be made so by properly finishing the wood with a sealant.

Yes, I was using Titebond III. It costs more and has a different label color, and even says "Titebond III" on it.

I'm certain you have had great experiences with it. It is a wonderful product. I have had good experiences with it, and I have had bad experiences. It has been my experience that there are better ways to do it, because it is not actually waterproof.

[CudOfCow]

Ok, so rearranged, the steps are as follows? I'm now glad that i asked this because i had it all wrong when i originally read the topic. I am keeping notes here!!!!

@Odd - if not titebond, then what?

1. (cut it) Cut your leather to preferred shape.

2. (tool it?) This is where you'd do any fancy curling/final tooling of the leather to get the thing into its final form before molding it to your bodyparts(or whatever you use to mold it to).

3. (mold it) Submerge your leather in water long enough that you can mold it to the chosen form(~30 minutes). Let it dry for a while, not until it is dry and stiff, but until it is only somewhat damp and has taken on some sort of shape.

4. (dye it) If you want to add dye, do it now. Use non water based dyes.

5. (dip in the glue stuff) When it is only somewhat damp and has taken on some shape. Dip it in [10:1] Water:Titebond III for a minute or two.

6. (cook it) Put a plank of wood(so it doesnt burn) in the oven and cook the armor at 180 degrees ferenheit until the piece starts to dry. Check them often. When they show signs of drying, pull them out. (dont cook it too long, it should not be totally dry when it comes out or it could shrink)

7. (dry it) After removing from the oven, wait THREE days of additional drying time.

8. (add sealant) Dip it in some kind of sealer. Pledge *Future* acrylic floor polish or similar.

[Odd]

I'd go with water, then acrylic. But don't discount what others have said. My issues could very well have been due to my local climate and all. Test it out on scraps, and see what you like.

Really play with the leather, get a good feel for it. You don't want to get everything down pat, and try to use a time/heat combo, cause somebody might mess with your thermostat, might be warmer outside, cooler outside, less cloudcover, and sunlight falls on the piece, or makes your kitchen 5 degrees warmer.. Better to lose a bunch of scraps figuring out the right feel than lose a single piece because you set the oven timer for 15 minutes and went to take a dump.

[Kilkenny]

Ok, so rearranged, the steps are as follows? I'm now glad that i asked this because i had it all wrong when i originally read the topic. I am keeping notes here!!!!

@Odd - if not titebond, then what?

1. (cut it) Cut your leather to preferred shape.

2. (tool it?) This is where you'd do any fancy curling/final tooling of the leather to get the thing into its final form before molding it to your bodyparts(or whatever you use to mold it to).

3. (mold it) Submerge your leather in water long enough that you can mold it to the chosen form(~30 minutes). Let it dry for a while, not until it is dry and stiff, but until it is only somewhat damp and has taken on some sort of shape.

4. (dye it) If you want to add dye, do it now. Use non water based dyes.

5. (dip in the glue stuff) When it is only somewhat damp and has taken on some shape. Dip it in [10:1] Water:Titebond III for a minute or two.

6. (cook it) Put a plank of wood(so it doesnt burn) in the oven and cook the armor at 180 degrees ferenheit until the piece starts to dry. Check them often. When they show signs of drying, pull them out. (dont cook it too long, it should not be totally dry when it comes out or it could shrink)

7. (dry it) After removing from the oven, wait THREE days of additional drying time.

8. (add sealant) Dip it in some kind of sealer. Pledge *Future* acrylic floor polish or similar.

Yep, that's pretty much it. I'll note that you should experiment a bit on how wet your leather needs to be for molding. Generally, it will form nicely without being soaking wet (solebend would be an exception) and it's easier and quicker to manage if it is not soggy and soft when you're forming