The Armour Archive

A couple of people were asking about part of my 14th Century harness,, so I thought I'd put up a couple pics.

Here's my pourpoint holding up my leg harness. The greaves hold themselves up, and yes, I changed out of my chucks before I took the field.



Alejandro gets photoshopped in OT in 5.....


A close up of the hip attachment points, and why I will never go back to a belt again.



Why yes, I am happy to see you.

Here's my leg harness all restored and polished up. It will never look this good again.



Especially since after sitting in a tub for a year or two, it looked like this -



Mild steel - never ever again.


This rig was originally made for the Pas d'Armes du l'Arbre d'Or, a couple years ago. Uillieag & I put it together in a crazy all-night armoring session. It still looks good, although the knee harness polishing job is so/so. Not bad for going after a mirror finish, and not really knowing anything about getting a mirror finish.

YOu sexy, sexy beast...

You kinda look like Eugene Hutz bachelor uncle who happens to have "issues"

Baron Alejandro wrote:Alejandro gets photoshopped in OT in 5.....

4..3..2..1

Some one has to caption "Bitches don't know my kicks, yo"

Baron Alejandro wrote:Alejandro gets photoshopped in OT in 5.....

Well, only because you asked.

Are there leather tabs sewn onto the other side of the pourpoint, or is there some other mechanism to keep the leather thong from tearing the garment?

-Derian.

Please don't ask Alejandro questions with the words "Leather thong" & "tearing the garment" in it.
Thanks.

Somebody put him in the top of the WTC with the plane in the background photo..

Derian le Breton wrote:Are there leather tabs sewn onto the other side of the pourpoint, or is there some other mechanism to keep the leather thong from tearing the garment?

-Derian.

Winterfell wrote:Please don't ask Alejandro questions with the words "Leather thong" & "tearing the garment" in it.
Thanks.

If you can't handle the full monty, stay out of this thread. I'm definitely interested in what lies on the other side of that pourpoint!



-Derian.

Well sewn eyelets and a quality fabric will prevent any tearing.

alail/scott

horsefriend wrote:Well sewn eyelets and a quality fabric will prevent any tearing.

Even with the weight of a steel leg harness? What sort of fabric weight would one need for eyelets to be sufficient?

-Derian.

horsefriend wrote:Well sewn eyelets and a quality fabric will prevent any tearing.

alail/scott

Not in my experience. The holes behind the leather on the pourpoint aren't eyeletted. And that fabric is what I had at the bottom of my stash!

Derian, to answer your query - there isn't any leather on the back of the pourpoint. Two things are holding up the weight of the harness. One, the <i>way you make the holes.</i> You have to find an awl that will <i>part</i> the fibers, NOT cut them. If you cut the fibers, fuhgeddaboudit. I learned this deet from the Wise & Learned Tasha McG.

Secondly, if you look closely at the hip points, there are <i>four</i> holes, not two. The loop goes through the top of the point and pulls on the leather - the leather thongs (shut up Agnarr) come out the front. What I'm trying to say is that the weight of the leg harness is pulled on the leather, <i>not the fabric</i>. I learned this from the Learned & Wise <s>Uillieag</s> Willie the Convict.

I hope I've explained myself clearly. But Derian will probably disagree.

Hmm, I still don't quite get it. Using an awl that wont cut the fabric makes sense, but I still don't understand how the pourpoint itself isn't supporting the weight of the harness.

I see four holes in the leather tabs - two connecting the tab to the leg harness, and two connecting the tab to the pourpoint. My question is primarily focused on the tab-pourpoint interface. Why is there no stress on the fabric there?

-Derian.

Derian le Breton wrote:but I still don't understand how the pourpoint itself isn't supporting the weight of the harness.

Hm, guess I misspoke myself. Because via the holes & the leather tab, it is.

Derian le Breton wrote:I see four holes in the leather tabs - two connecting the tab to the leg harness, and two connecting the tab to the pourpoint.

AH! That assumption is mistaken. The four holes in the leather tab correspond with four matching holes in the pourpoint (that I hadn't straightened at the bottom before that picture was taken. my bad.). There is one continuous leather thong (shut up agnarr) connecting each leg.

Derian le Breton wrote:My question is primarily focused on the tab-pourpoint interface. Why is there no stress on the fabric there?

-Derian.

Because I have the pourpoint laced tightly, and the cuisses laced tightly to the pourpoint.

can you document those shoes?


( I'm not looking forward to moving my new
arms point locations ( on the shirt ) by 1 1/2 "
so I'm being sarcastic at the expense of BA...)

Yes, I can document those shoes.











...to 1917.

Okay, that explanation definitely helps. My engineering intuition (tm) is screaming that the stress is still transferred to the pourpoint. However, by lacing the thong (shut up agnarr) tightly with four holes I can see that the stress is distributed, instead of being focused on the lacing holes directly.

Is that right?

Thanks,

-Derian.

so, one of the processes of making a pourpoint is making me shut up?

Only where leather thongs are involved.

I'd say that the stress <i>is</i> transferred to the pourpoint, but it's distributed throughout the garment via the tightness. Although there is some concentration in the shoulders. Not much, though. Definitely not the whole weight of the legs.

Well the weight has to be supported by something that's connected to the ground, eventually. Equal and opposite forces and all that. Maybe the chucks help support them via the Awesomeness Force?

Did you use a commercial pattern for your pourpoint? I want to make one...

-Derian.

No. I just made a vest, and then fit it tightly. I made it using my Tailor's Powers of Awesomeness +1.

I used an awl to make a hole; yes, no threads being cut is VERY important,
then I used the (period) trick of sewing a small metal ring in as I made the eyelets. I only have two holes per tab, two tabs per leg, and have not had a single eyelet fail in over 7 years. The fabric is c$%& 5 oz. denim. Warning: never make a prototype to well, I've been living with ghastly orange twill for that long because the damn thing works so well and will not fail. : <


alail/scott

Baron Alejandro wrote:No. I just made a vest, and then fit it tightly. I made it using my Tailor's Powers of Awesomeness +1.

Aww. I'm all thumbs when it comes to sewing. Fitting... I haven't even seen that bridge, much less crossed it.

-Derian.

The <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Medieval-Tailors-Assistant-Garments-1200-1500/dp/0896762394">Medieval Tailor's Assistant</a> has an excellent description on making a body block (I think - I don't have my copy in front of me) which is very useful for making all sorts of fitted things.

ETA - but it doesn't specifically have instructions on a pourpont.

Hm, I think we own that one, I'll have to give it a look.

Also, is the design close to a modern mundane vest? I own a couple of those that fit reasonably well.

Thanks!

-Derian.

horsefriend wrote: Warning: never make a prototype too well, I've been living with ghastly orange twill for that long because the damn thing works so well and will not fail. : <

Black or dark brown Rit dye is Horsefriend's friend. Otherwise, do like he says and pick your material with an eye for colors you can live with.

No fuchsia and leopard-print in quarters. Unless it's the lining, and you aim to make it utterly theft proof.

However -- grabbing at straws -- high-vis colors may help in instructing novice pourpointers see the desirable details and construction techniques they need to use -- ever considered retiring it to use as an exemplar, newbs-for-the-use-of?

Derian le Breton wrote:Also, is the design close to a modern mundane vest? I own a couple of those that fit reasonably well.

Like a vest with enlarged armholes and a back like that of a pair of overalls, pretty much. It's also lengthened a few inches, going down to your jeans pockets rather than your beltline -- when you're standing.

The shoulder seam will be shorter, not as long as the complete width of the shoulder from neck to shirtsleeve seam as an ordinary vest would be, but about half the distance from neck to shoulder point. This is for a good combination of weight bearing and mobility of arm.

I'm all thumbs when it comes to sewing. Fitting... I haven't even seen that bridge, much less crossed it.

Borrow a friend who sews. Even one who doesn't but who's a quick study can fit things close to your fleshly contours a half bazillion times quicker than you can by groping at yourself with straight pins, finger pinches, or even a strategically employed stapler to take things in after basting-stitching them together and trying them on.

A stapler, you wonder? Well, you take the stapler and find where the pourpoint's cut-out and basted together lining fabric is loose and sloppy, and run a row of staples between seam and self to tighten up that place until you're happy -- go snug at the waist, hips, and upper half of buttocks, and slightly slacker up at the shoulders and chest. "Snug" is you have to make an effort to get your bladed fingers thrust between pourpoint and self, "slightly slacker" is when you can slide them in easily.

Works about the same fitting cut and sewn hose, even on the bias for that medieval spandex effect, btw.

Once you've done all the cut-and-try on your lining fabric, you have your pattern for cutting everything else from the rest of your cloth, and this is a comparative no-brainer. This is how I tailored my Charles de Blois, and that was a first effort. Only problem I had was over-stuffing one upper arm so it's really too stiff and tight.

Quilting stuff together with quilt stitching takes some time. Expect to be at this a while because there's a lot more stitching going on than just seaming the pieces together. LOTS of time. You're literally going over the entire surface of the piece with stitch lines. Now, a pourpoint is relatively small of surface area, and sleeveless, so that helps. There is nothing whatever wrong with getting ambitious enough to make the stitch lines ornamental -- layouts of sprays, fans, even delineating your device somewhere on the piece, hey? Pin the layers to be quilted together with lots of pins all around, and draw the decorative lines with soft pencil or washable fabric marker. Tailors' chalk is probably a bit imprecise. It's a good tool for marking seams and straightline things, but don't try it for something fiddly.

It looks really nice and I have learnt a new way to hang my legs from my pourpoint. Do you find that the cut at the arm holes is deep enough not to cause binding? I was taught that one wants to try to follow the line of the pec muscle to allow the best movement.

Derian le Breton wrote:Also, is the design close to a modern mundane vest? I own a couple of those that fit reasonably well.

Thanks!

-Derian.

As far as the design goes - I totally winged (wung?) it. It can't fit 'reasonably' well. It has to fit CLOSELY. Like, Agnarr-on-a-Golden-Girls-lookalike close.

Agnarr wrote:so, one of the processes of making a pourpoint is making me shut up?

Thong-shut-up-Agnarr may become the new Archive catchword... From the error of the Northmen, Lord deliver us...

[OT: this site will give you an inbetween size if you want it to; you can go midway between the tiny/small/normal/large sizes which are set two size numbers apart. Well, you can use the size numbers between them too.]

Thanks for the tips everyone! Sounds like the best course of action is for me to bribe a certain friend of mine who's good at fitting things.

-Derian.

horsefriend wrote: Warning: never make a prototype to well, I've been living with ghastly orange twill for that long because the damn thing works so well and will not fail. : <
alail/scott

Of course, had you made it with nice fabric in the color you really wanted, it would have fallen to pieces in the first critical fight you fought while wearing it.