IWTB a Hospitaller 1230-1250

Baron Conal · Post by **Baron Conal** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 5:28 pm

nuff said?

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 12:45 am

Before getting into the particulars of arms and armor for the timeframe, perhaps it's best to start with the basics of the Rule?

http://www.smom-za.org/rule.htm

http://blessed-gerard.org/

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:39 am

An LH group devoted to the order:

http://www.knightshospitaller.net/

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:00 am

For the period 1230-1250, the single most important item distinguishing a member of the order would be the black cappa clausa or monastic robe. This seems to have been enclosed (no front opening or buttons) until late in the century; the gown was normally ankle length, with long sleeves, but there is some debate over the inclusion of a hood. The dispensation to wear the military surcoat was not granted until 1248 by Pope Innocent IV, and even then it's use was restricted to "dangerous areas". The 8-pointed cross (see later posts, this may have been a modified formÃ©e, mouline, or cross anchrÃ©e) in white appeared very early in the 13th century, and would probably be the norm for 1230-1250, although the location on the cappa clausa may have been on the upper left breast rather than centered. Various sources descripe the sleeves as being rather tight fitting, a feature one would expect from modest monks trying to avoid a sumptuous display of extravagently expensive flaring sleeves.

While not in military gear, a white coif--of double thickness according to David Nicolle(Osprey's Warrior series #33 Knight Hospitaller (1) 1100-1306--was worn with a black biretta skull-cap which came down to the top of the ears.

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 3:36 pm

Keeping in mind that military gear for the Order should be "plain" or un-ornamented, and that much of it would be covered by the black wool cappa, here are two sources to view the Maciejowski Bible, a French work dated to c. 1250.

http://www.keesn.nl/mac/mac_en.htm

http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/ ... _bible.htm

I don't know how long this will stay online, but here's the actual manuscript, not scans from "Old Testament Miniatures"!

http://www.themorgan.org/collections/sw ... asp?id=200

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 3:44 pm

Armor images from two Bestiaries of the 1230s from the British Library
(pasted from a previous thread 'cause I'm lazy)

Here's a miniature from Harley MS 4751 dated to c. 1235.

The elephant, fo. 8r has a couple of helms similar to yours in the castle.

http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/onlineex ... 76293.html

Royal MS 12 F.xiii, fo.9v, the Antelope.
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/ ... ew=gallery

http://ogimages.bl.uk/images/011/011ROY ... [SVC2].jpg

The unicorn hunter, Royal MS 12 F.xiii, fo. 10v. from 1230 has only mail.

http://ogimages.bl.uk/images/011/011ROY ... [SVC2].jpg

A good example of the helmet and armor in "the Elephant", fo. 11v.

http://ogimages.bl.uk/images/011/011ROY ... [SVC2].jpg

And an archer hunts the Bonnacon, fo. 16r

http://ogimages.bl.uk/images/011/011ROY ... [SVC2].jpg

And more helmets in. fo. 30v-- the zoomable link:

http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/onlineex ... 30v00.html

Knights and horses in fo. 42v:

http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/onlineex ... 42v00.html

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 3:48 pm

The Life of Edward the Confessor, c. 1250.

http://www.lib.cam.ac.uk/MSS/Ee.3.59/

Edit: Link down as of 1 March 2011. Now, here:

http://www.lib.cam.ac.uk/deptserv/manuscripts/Ee.3.59/

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 4:02 pm

Armor images from the Sketchbook of Villard de Honnecourt, c.1220-1230.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... k_-_03.jpg

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... k_-_16.jpg

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... k_-_37.jpg

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... k_-_38.jpg

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... k_-_46.jpg

The last figure perhaps being more useful for the martyred saints' robes than the swords...

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... k_-_53.jpg

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 4:13 pm

Some "German" sources include this early 13th century wall painting of Ivain from SchloÃŸ Rodenegg:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... denegg.jpg

There's also this mid-13th century manuscript, CGm 51 from Munich.

http://www.library.arizona.edu/exhibits ... /13_04.jpg

Giles de Nablus · Post by **Giles de Nablus** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:16 pm

WOW, this helps me a bunch

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 1:30 pm

From Matthew Paris' Lives of the Offas, c. 1250

http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/onlineex ... 03000.html

http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/onlineex ... 03v00.html

Warning! Although the following illustration appears in the Lives of the Offas manuscript, the British Library notes that it is not an original work by Matthew, but was added c. 1320--out of period for this discussion. I have included it solely to note that I didn't "miss it"--Ernst

http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/onlineex ... 07000.html

Excellent example of the monastic cappa clausa of c. 1250.

http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/onlineex ... 22000.html

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 1:54 pm

Honest to God miniatures from a French Bible of c. 1240-1250, Alençon - BM - ms. 0,054 . These are notable for the uniformity of gear--hauberk with attached coif and mittens, chausses, surcoat, sword and shield.
http://www.culture.gouv.fr/public/mistral/enlumine_fr

fo.077r http://www.culture.gouv.fr/Wave/savimag ... 9323-p.jpg
fo.170r http://www.culture.gouv.fr/Wave/savimag ... 9351-p.jpg
fo.202r http://www.culture.gouv.fr/Wave/savimag ... 9375-p.jpg
fo.359r http://www.culture.gouv.fr/Wave/savimag ... 9452-p.jpg

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 7:38 pm

From the Elisabethpsalter,

http://www.brandenburg1260.de/kettenbeinlinge5.jpg

The square-lappet coif seems more common in German art than elsewhere. Hopefully, I'm seeing cuisses over chausses, and not "mail socks"....

http://www.brandenburg1260.de/kettenhaubeum1245.jpg

Lifted from this German re-enactors page, which has other useful stuff too. Just watch your dates.

http://www.brandenburg1260.de/ruestungen.html

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 9:26 pm

From the Getty--

http://www.getty.edu/art/gettyguide/art ... &handle=li

A missing leaf from the Morgan's Maciejowski Bible

http://www.getty.edu/art/gettyguide/art ... rtobj=1554

Fron the Dyson-Perrins Apocalypse, slightly out of our dates at c. 1255-1260.

http://www.getty.edu/art/gettyguide/art ... rtobj=3349
http://www.getty.edu/art/gettyguide/art ... rtobj=3365
http://www.getty.edu/art/gettyguide/art ... rtobj=3402

and a few more helmets from the Northumberland Bestiary's Elephant with tower...

http://www.getty.edu/art/gettyguide/art ... book&pg=11

Oh what the hell, the Northumberland Psalter's Bonnacon (I can argue that it's to show flat-topped kites with bosses are still in use by 1250. Yeah, that's the ticket.)

http://www.getty.edu/art/gettyguide/art ... &handle=li

Baron Conal · Post by **Baron Conal** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:48 am

I've gotten the impression that the Osprey books are
not always accurate...... How good is...

this one?

Baron Conal · Post by **Baron Conal** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:12 am

[url=http://www.orderstjohn.org/osj/cross.htm]History of the Maltese Cross,
as used by the Order of St John of Jerusalem[/url]

( that's a link :wink: )

edited because link was not embedded correctly

http://www.orderstjohn.org/osj/cross.htm]

Eamonn MacCampbell · Post by **Eamonn MacCampbell** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:59 am

Baron Conal wrote:History of the Maltese Cross,
as used by the Order of St John of Jerusalem

( that's a link )

Thats good info Conal..I always wondered about using a Maltese cross for an earlier impression...My theory was in the name, I just assumed that it was from the time of when they were on Malta...So I opted for the formee style as it had 8 points as per the order from 1248 allowing the use of surcoats

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:24 pm

The monastic garment of St. Francis--

http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-ca ... rancis.htm

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:31 pm

Excerpts from Matthew Paris chronicles concerning the military orders. The Hospitaller Prior in England in 1237-8 is a German.

http://www.cf.ac.uk/hisar/people/hn/Mil ... TTHEW.html

and images from Matthew's work dated to the 1240s or 1250s--

http://www.hrionline.ac.uk/normans/matthewparis.shtml

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:12 pm

A thesis concerning the Templars, but showing some illustrations of the Hospitaller's banners, and arguing the shield copied the banner, i.e. a white cross on red, even during the time when the cappa and surcoat wer white cross on black.

http://www.skjaere.me.uk/dissertation/i ... late26.jpg

Although the second example has cropped it, above the shield with the two fish (De Bar) is a shield with an anchor-cross (gold on red?) for the fallen "Debares".

http://www.skjaere.me.uk/dissertation/chap4.html

"Many people erroneously associate St George's cross with the arms of the Order. When they think of the Templars, they imagine a shield bearing a red cross on a white field, matching the Order's habit. This was not the case--or not entirely. Franklyn (1963, pp. 69, 309) is one of the only authors I found who strongly associated St George's cross with Templar arms.

He describes their shield as a pale and fess cross, which is defined as a vertical and a horizontal bar, extending to the edge of the shield. In some situations, the limbs of the cross might be cut short, or couped. He also tells us that this emblem is an early example of counterchanging, or reversing the colours of a shield. In this case, that of the Hospitallers, whose shield and banner bore a white cross on a red field.

St George's cross was, however, not the usual shield and standard of the Order. It was more likely to be associated with crusading knights or images of the host of heaven. Their official banner was called the Beauseant."

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:25 pm

Dedicated men, those French. Anyone up for a tonsure?

http://www.1186-583.org/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=28

LuciusAngelini · Post by **LuciusAngelini** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:11 pm

Awesome stuff Ernst, thank you for sharing!!

Here is another quesiton. Regarding Hospitallers stationed in places such as Acre, Saref, Tiberias or any of the other crudsader states....what can we find on turbans as head gear?

I've found obscure assumptions and references to it, but nothing solid...am I missing something, or making a connection that doesn't exist?

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:32 pm

LuciusAngelini wrote:Awesome stuff Ernst, thank you for sharing!!

Here is another quesiton. Regarding Hospitallers stationed in places such as Acre, Saref, Tiberias or any of the other crudsader states....what can we find on turbans as head gear?

I've found obscure assumptions and references to it, but nothing solid...am I missing something, or making a connection that doesn't exist?

Per Nicolle in Warrior #33, p.26

"In the 1280s a usance repeated that a brother might not remove his biretta or hat even if he was feeling hot, unless there was a good reason. A brother could also wear a brimmed hat, white turban or oreillet (item covering the ears) in the fierce Middle Eastern sun. In 1262 another statute stated that on a military expedition no brother could wear a turban which was anything other than white, which was emboidered or which dangled down to the waist."

In other words, Hospitallers serving in the Holy Land eventually began to adopt turbans, after the 1230-1250 period and within the rule of simple and un-ornamented.

Terrence Wise notes that some Hospitallers "wore more worldly garments such as bright silks and gold or silver emboidered clothes and turbans." I suspect the rules offer negative evidence, e.g. laws banning the use of MDMA only get on the books if MDMA use is a problem. One could argue that turbans were worn before officially allowed, and that some were too gaudy for the image of poor monks, who were quickly gaining a reputation for being too rich, too fat, and too drunk.

Baron Conal · Post by **Baron Conal** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:27 pm

sorry....

MDMA?

audax · Post by **audax** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:42 pm

Baron Conal wrote:sorry....

MDMA?

Ecstasy the drug.

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:06 pm

Point being laws aren't passed to forbid or regulate something until after it's become an issue.

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:47 pm

Some sleeping guards from Morgan MS M.299, Saxon (Halle?) c.1215-1235

http://utu.morganlibrary.org/medren/sin ... A000078964

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 2:43 pm

More manuscript pics, this time from the Danish KB's Kristina Psalter GKS 1606 4Âº of c.1230:

http://www.kb.dk/permalink/2006/manus/2 ... cto/?var=1
http://www.kb.dk/permalink/2006/manus/2 ... cto/?var=1
http://www.kb.dk/permalink/2006/manus/2 ... rso/?var=1

Jonathan Atkin · Post by **Jonathan Atkin** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:36 pm

Baron Conal wrote:I've gotten the impression that the Osprey books are
not always accurate...... How good is...

this one?

The myarmoury crew have an extensive book listing you might find interesting. http://www.myarmoury.com/home.html

I have the book it's a good gate way drug to learn about this military order, but isn't very comprehensive over all still a good book for the beginner, you can get it on amazon for like 5 bucks realy cheap. If you want pictures go with the Osprey Men-at-Arms: A Celebration (General Military) picture after beautiful picture!

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 5:32 pm

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Sat Aug 01, 2009 5:55 pm

From the Abbey of St. Maurice's Shrine of Abbot Nantelm, 1225.

http://www.abbaye-stmaurice.ch/home-home-english.html

Interesting not only for the helmet to the side, but because it appears to show straps across the open palm of the mail mitten.

Halberds · Post by **Halberds** » Sun Sep 06, 2009 3:11 am

Thank you for the fine links.
Some mighty fine reference material there.
Ernst sent me, from the construction pages.

Jolly well done.

Cheers

Hal

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Sun Sep 06, 2009 8:19 am

No problem Hal.

Hopefully You'll see some inspiration for the next 13th century helm. Plenty of examples of conical helms still in use too.

NeeSayer · Post by **NeeSayer** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 5:30 pm

Here is my attempt at a hospitaller from the time frame. I know boots are definitely needed, but not too sure what else from there. Any advice?

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:09 pm

You're trying to have a cappa/surcoat hybrid. The cappa should be at least to your mid-shin, perhaps to the ankle, and without any split in the skirt. The cross should be small as noted above, perhaps no more than 4" across, centered like a necklace pendant. Of course this wouldn't be visible under the camail. Separate coifs can be found from 1230-1250, but are less common than coifs integral to the hauberk. We have to fudge it because the helm doesn't cover enough area to be SCA list-legal. I'd say tuck the mail under the cappa clausa so the smaller cross becomes visible.

The legs clearly need attention. With the longer robe, all you'll need are 1/2 chausses of mail (socks de fer?), or mail covered boots.

What's the current hand protection?

IWTB a Hospitaller 1230-1250

I wanna be a 1230-1250 German Hospitaller Knight