IWTB a Hospitaller 1230-1250

[NeeSayer]

So if i'm getting you right, I need to be wearing more of the full lenth monks robe instead of the tunic-ish thing i'm wearing now?

Also, with that full length robe if I took like a pair of wrestling shoes or something similar and covered them with chainmail would that give the look needed? I have a good sized chunk of welded mail so thats a project I would be able to tackle.

Also would it be greaves, like the splinted kind, or chainmail leggings be what needs to be on?

[Ernst]

You should be wearing mail chausses--hose, stockings, etc. But with the long robe you won't show anything above mid-shin. Domnall gives this picture of mail covered boots. They're not as tight fitting as chausses look, but it could work with a longer gown. But a closer fit to the foot and calf would look better.

How would you lace the wrestling boots after covering them with mail? Maybe soccer shin guards, beneath really thick wool socks of knee length, topped with mail strapped at the top of the calf?

[NeeSayer]

And here's the updated kit with the new robe. I got my hands on a pair of viking leather works 13th C shoes. Not shown in the picture is the braided rope (red rope of course) belt that I made for the kit as well.

I also have made a 24x36 kite shield instead of the heater.

Final change coming I think will be a new helm. I think a simple norman nasal w/ aventail would be correct?

[Mega Zenjirou Yoshi]

[quote="NeeSayer"]And here's the updated kit with the new robe. I got my hands on a pair of viking leather works 13th C shoes. Not shown in the picture is the braided rope (red rope of course) belt that I made for the kit as well.

I also have made a 24x36 kite shield instead of the heater.

Final change coming I think will be a new helm. I think a simple norman nasal w/ aventail would be correct?[/quote]


NeeSayer, what year or span of years are you shooting for?

[NeeSayer]

Approximately 1210 or so. I know the thread is for later but I figured its as close as I could get. Any tips is greatly appreciated

[RenJunkie]

What about any lay people associated with the order? What would they be wearing, and how would they be kitted out for war? I mean, did they have to supply their own gear or were they equipped by the order?

Thanks!
Christopher

[Ranif]

Hospitallers 1200-1250

Hospitallers 1250-1300

Finally got around to editing.
Ranif

[RenJunkie]

These guys are they laymen? Wow.

What would they have worn when not in armour?

Thanks!
Christopher

[Ranif]

[quote="RenJunkie"]These guys are they laymen? Wow.
What would they have worn when not in armour?[/quote]
As I remember, the knights were ordained monks, Benedictine & then Augustinian. So, usual monk's robes I would imagine. For the lay fighters standard civvies of the day.
Ranif

[RenJunkie]

Neat.

Thanks!
Christopher

[Hamish Nisbet]

any one know when they switched from the Black to the red surcoats?

[NeeSayer]

1248

[Hamish Nisbet]

awesome, Thank you.

Might i also ask if you have the info on the reason for the change?

[NeeSayer]

awesome, Thank you.

Might i also ask if you have the info on the reason for the change?

It was originally decreed that brother knights would wear the red while sergeant at arms and lower would continue to wear the black. In 1257 that changed to where everyone wore the red and white surcoat. Let me do some digging around and i'll give ya links on it all. My persona is before the surcoat so I still wear the monks robe while fighting but I have good info on the later 13th C around here somewhere....

Interestingly from what I've seen is that it looks like regardless of station the shield was painted with the red and white heraldry as early as 1210. Once again, let me do some digging to find the resources that drew me to that conclusion.

[Hamish Nisbet]

Great info, I appreciate it.

[Ernst]

Interestingly from what I've seen is that it looks like regardless of station the shield was painted with the red and white heraldry as early as 1210. Once again, let me do some digging to find the resources that drew me to that conclusion.

We have theorized this was the case earlier in this thread. The argument is that the shield bore the arms of the order which appeared on the banner, rather than reflecting the color of the order's robe. If you can find anything more concrete it would be appreciated by many.

[NeeSayer]

Interestingly from what I've seen is that it looks like regardless of station the shield was painted with the red and white heraldry as early as 1210. Once again, let me do some digging to find the resources that drew me to that conclusion.

We have theorized this was the case earlier in this thread. The argument is that the shield bore the arms of the order which appeared on the banner, rather than reflecting the color of the order's robe. If you can find anything more concrete it would be appreciated by many.

I had found some good manuscipts that while not showing the outright color the shading was different than the black surcoat so it would make sense it was the red. I had some other good links but the computer they were saved on crashed with a rather nasty virus so lost them. I've been digging around in my free time but haven't found them yet. Gonna keep searching

[Ernst]

http://art.thewalters.org/detail/21344/ ... oshua-725/

Walters Art Museum, MS W.106.19R, c. 1230-50.

[Outremer]

What documentation is there for Hospitallers using kettle helmets in the Levant?

[Ernst]

Images from c.1285, so outside the 1230-1250 in the thread title, but showing Spanish Hospitallers. The size and position of the cross on the cloak is visible.
http://warfare.totalh.net/Cantiga/Canti ... ia-275.htm

[Greenshield]

My SCA kit at Gulf Wars sans chausses.

GreenShield

[Ernst]

Your kits are always impressive. My only major complaint continues to be in the size of the cross, which is too large for this early period. For another perspective on cappas vs. mantle, and red shield vs. black, I refer those interested to Sander Marechal's posts at myarmoury.com

http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=27268

[Matthieu Barcaloo]

my first try. there will be improvements in the future.

[Ernst]

The Templars, Hospitallers and other military orders in the eyes of their contemporaries, 1128-1291.

http://www.the-orb.net/encyclop/religio ... ights.html

[SigRandr Vadrefjord]

I have a stupid question, I am curious for my persona if Byzantines were hospitaller?

[Ernst]

Would Orthodox followers join a Catholic Order?

[SigRandr Vadrefjord]

But wasnt they roman catholics? and didnt the romans sign to help the 4th crusade?

[Ernst]

Byzantinium was Orthodox. While they allied themselves with the Roman Catholic crusaders from the west on occasion (as did some Islamic rulers), they would not have joined a Catholic order of monks.

[SigRandr Vadrefjord]

thanks for the knowledge Ernst, So i guess i should have asked was... was there any hospitallers in constantinople.

[Ernst]

Yes, but they would probably be performing their primary duty of providing for pilgrims rather than a direct military function until after 1204/4th Crusade. At that point they would be part of the Latin Empire until 1261.

http://www2.egeonet.gr/forms/fLemmaBody ... maID=10634

They first appeared in the Byzantine Empire shortly before the Fourth Crusade, but mainly after it. We know that before 1204 they kept a hospital in Constantinople. After the sack though, just like the Knights Templar, they received several dominions as donations in many places of the Latin Empire of Constantinople and the Principality of Achaia. They made a dynamic appearance in the Aegean in the early 14th century (1306-1309/10) conquering Rhodes and the rest of the Dodecanese.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_Empire

[Edward MacTavish]

There was an European sutler that had some good examples and prices on hospitallars kit. Any one have that kink saved?

Edward

[Edward MacTavish]

I never posted my kit on here so I thought I should. I have a better set of greaves based off the Goliath image and have added a set of concealed gauntlets and different helm. I still need to fix all the little details and get the proper accessories. I have my eyes on a cool field surgery kit.

Edward

[William Lee]

There was an European sutler that had some good examples and prices on hospitallars kit. Any one have that kink saved?

Edward

http://www.medievaldesign.com/eng-prodo ... _chiave=27

Go to the very bottom of the page.

[Ernst]

I've exchanged a few PMs with Sander Marechal over at MyArmoury, and he has graciously sent several links concerning their uniform choices for a Hospitaller in the 1248-1260 period. Although the links are in French, an online translator does an acceptable job of getting the message across. Much original source material is included.
http://www.guerriersma.com/contenu/reco ... ccueil.htm

The long and short of it is that we agree on things like the use of the red shield rather than black, but the wearing of the cappa over mail seems more dubious to me now. The evidence seems to point toward the cross being sewn to the cloak or mantle, but not to the cappa. How black the cappa might be would vary with the nature of the sheep, so dark brown to black is accepted within their group. Since the cappa was normal wear for bothers, but not for non-monastic members, they have decided the half-circle cloak with cross is the "uniform" which interferes with the movement of the arms and is eventually replaced by the surcoat. I think the cappa might have been worn beneath the mail, since it was "clothing" for the monk, but am beginning to believe the much illustrated wearing of the cappa over the hauberk has little basis in fact.

The most relevant article:

http://www.guerriersma.com/contenu/reco ... talier.htm

[Ernst]

I offer a miniature from Cambridge MS Mm.5.31, Expositio in Apocalypsim, Alexander of Bremen, 1249-1250, fo139r: Baldwin of Flanders and Godfrey of Bouillon, army of Hospitalers, Templars, and Teutonic Knights Of note is the Latin inscription describing these as Hospitallers, Templars, and Teutonic Knights. The red-surcoat figure might be Godfrey with the arms of Jerusalem in a distorted color scheme
http://cudl.lib.cam.ac.uk/view/MS-MM-00005-00031/281