IWTB a 14th C. Gallowglass

[Ronan220]

Post subject: I Want to be a 14th Cen. Irish native Gallowglass

Title pretty much says it, I have been doing some research and have several ideas as to what I can possibly do here but at best the information I have been able to find is limited and rather debatable on much of the details.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallowglass

Although not a good primary resource this wikipedia does give alot of the information I have been able to thus far obtain from more reputable sources.

Anyhow what thoughts resources or Ideas do any of you all have on making the best combat kit , and off the field presence for this persona, I am thinking around the 1360's-1380's so latter 14th Cen. but open to other ideas.


Thanks.

[Robert of Canterbury]

Ronan,

The one source you give indicated that Gallowglass were Hebridean and highland Scots Gaels rather than Irish.

Do you wanna be Irish, or a gallowglass? it appears the two are different creatures.

Robert

[Ronan220]

From what I have been able to determine they originated from Scotland and would travel to Ireland for War season, but over time they acquired land and titles in Ireland as well and had their ranks filled with Irish native, as well as Scottish Decent Gallowglass Warriors. Also from what I can tell the Fighting kit would be about the same, although I am abit questionable on exactly which way to go on that for accuracy and still passing Marshall and dealing with Heat in Trimaris heh.

Non-the-less as I already have name passed with Irish construction it would be easier to do persona as Gallowglass of Irish Decent, and I so far don't believe that there would be much of a difference from what I can find on them. I could be wrong though, of course that is why I am here asking others for their knowledge thoughts etc =)

[DeCalmont]

Ronan,


Have you looked at the 14th C. Scot thread yet? There is a lot of good information there. If that doesn't help you let us know.


14th C. Scot

[Ronan220]

Although some decent stuff for what was available possibly to them there, the warriors from that thread are fairly different it appears in their structure armor and gear. Gallowglass specific information is really rather limited I suppose for the entirety of their existence let alone for a very specific time frame of years within their existence. I suppose that is why we don't see many personas based on them.

[Tomburr]

From what I have been able to determine they originated from Scotland and would travel to Ireland for War season, but over time they acquired land and titles in Ireland as well and had their ranks filled with Irish native, as well as Scottish Decent Gallowglass Warriors.

Well, based on what you say right here, and on the info I have also gathered on Gallowglasses, if you are going to be a true Irish native (Irish name structure), you would be working for a wealthy Gallowglass from Scotland, as one of his hired men. Gallowglasses were, as far as has been recorded, of Scottish origin. Any Irish amongst them would probably be foot soldiers hired to fight under them.
But there's no shame in that, and it seems plausible that any of them could rise in status and wealth in their career as a mercenary.

[madlarks]

It looks like it shouldn't be too difficult to get some armor going. A mail shirt and the proper style of helm otherwise most of your armor will be hidden. Definitely suggest shoes though....

While not always accurate simply running a google image search comes up with some ideas you can check out accuracy.

Not sure what the helms called but short brim maybe a lobster tail helm.
Kidney belt under a mail shirt gambeson
Simple gorget
Hidden knees maybe simple cops and splint thighs or just a longer mail shirt.
Same thing for arms try to keep it hidden or minimal.

[Eamonn MacCampbell]

Not sure what the helms called but short brim maybe a lobster tail helm.

Except he did say 14C...Lobster tails are a bit later by some time.

[Tomburr]

A mail shirt and the proper style of helm otherwise most of your armor will be hidden. Definitely suggest shoes though....

Kidney belt under a mail shirt gambeson
Simple gorget
Hidden knees maybe simple cops and splint thighs or just a longer mail shirt.
Same thing for arms try to keep it hidden or minimal.

^ This sounds about right.

For the helm, I would recommend a kettle hat(with bar work for SCA legality), or maybe a greathelm if you hate being able to see or breathe. I doubt their equipment got very fancy, except perhaps amongst the few wealthier, most successful Gallowglasses. Think of more common, less fancifully stylish armor for the times and go from there.

[talaananthes]

First, a bit of history.

The first Galloglass known to have been soldiers of an Irish lord were given to Aedh Ua Conchobair (aka O Conor, a personal favorite of mine because he had the good graces to burn the hall house at Kilteasheen where I worked at excavations) in 1259 after he married the daughter of the king of the Hebrides. Within a few generations, every Irish lord wanted gallowglass, and they were granted high land and privileges generally reserved for bards and scholars. If you want to be an Irish-born Gallowglass, that's just fine. Your dad (or, by the 14th century, it could be your granddad or more) would probably have been Scottish, and your name would probably be Scottish form, but the men of your family might have been marrying Irish women for several generations, so you could be more Irish than Scottish, but you could also have been fostered in Scotland and so kept in touch with your Scottish ancestry. It's up to you, really.

As far as gear goes, a big two handed weapon is the norm . . . axe early on, supposedly inherited from their Norse forefathers (the inhabitants of the Isles at this point were of mixed Norse and Gaelic ancestry), sword later, although I don't know specific dates. Dagger and possibly arming sword as sidearms. You'd also carry javelins, and according to some sources a bow as well.

Armour is maille over aketon with a helmet, I don't know of any justification for plate limb armour but you might be able to fudge it, especially if the legs are mostly hidden under your long leine.

They seem to have adopted the bascinet early on . . . the tomb of Felim Ua Conchobair (the abovementioned Aedh's dad) in Roscommon Abbey shows a row of gallowglass wearing maille and basinet over a pleated leine. Felim died in the 1250's, but his tomb and effigy probably date to the early 14th century, so this could be right up your alley:

[img]http://www.geocities.com/na_degadmediev ... loglas.jpg[/img]

I have some pictures of my own, but don't have access to them right now, but I found these guys on the internet from the same tomb.

For soft kit, it's the same basic shtick that you hear for 1500 years of Irish history: Linen leine (pleated around the skirt by now, but I think sleeves are still tight-fitted, not the baggy droopy things of the 16th century) maybe in a saffronish color, recangular brat, leather or wool belt, woolen ionar if you want (the form of the ionar changes drastically over time, I don't know what it looks like in the 14th century), maybe hose or tight-fitting trews, but probably not.

[Ronan220]

Thanks for all the feedback thus far. Yeah it is looking as though I may have to resubmit my name with a scottish instead of the Irish structure. As for the Helm Bascinet seems to be pretty much the helm I find they wear too. I suppose I could make a fake akaton (IE no padding really, just the stitching and some very loose padding to make the quilted look) as I imagine a real Akaton would kill me down here in Trimaris. Then hide any and all armor under it. Use my leather arms and legs under it. Maille Shirt thats gonna be pricey lol.

[talaananthes]

If you use the right materials, it will NOT kill you, even in the heat.

LINEN IS KEY! It is amazingly comfortable in any heat, just as good as (in my opinion better than) underarmour and the like.

Plus, with maille, you're going to need padding unless you just have a huge pain tolerance, it does next to nothing to dissipate the force of blows.

[Tomburr]

Thank you, talaananthes, for the added info. This has been, for me, a somewhat difficult group to find reliably-sourced documentation on.

Good luck in constructing this persona, Ronan. Please keep this thread updated as you progress, for the benefit of others. Gallowglasses are cool.

[talaananthes]

Yw . . . and, Ronan, by the end of the 14th century some of the gallowglass positions were becoming a weird form of landed nobility, an office with set duties and responsibilities, and some of those positions did pass into the hands of purely Irish men, when they were the guys for the job, so you could keep the Irish name if you wanted.

One thing to be aware of, the Ó Riordan (sorry, but I'm not going to even try the Gaelic form of names I'm not already familiar with) were from the southwest of Ireland, originally from Offaly in the 11th century (when the name originated), then Tipperary and Cork. I don't know details of the family history, but keep in mind that it's a Munster name and families didn't tend to travel much in Gaelic IReland.

[mark ha]

Here is a link to our yahoo group, we are a small group up in Maryland. There are some good links on there. Another Idea would be the Irish living history forum. Feel free to join our yahoo site and ask questions. Some of our more knowledgeable members are computer challenged so the answers usually take a while to get answered. Kind of like an orical.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnamha/?yguid=319722633

Mark Hanna

[Ronan220]

Here is how things are coming along so far, still have a long way to go but getting there.

[don]

If you search around on the forum, more specifically the Design and Construction section there are a "few" threads about gambesons/aktons/cotuns/etc.

Stoccata http://www.stoccata.org has an article on making a cotun that can stand up to quarterstaffing. If you put some pockets on the inside for plates, you should pass marshalls.

Don

[Ronan220]

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=3 ... 1099389036

[Tibbie Croser]

There's a new Galloglass book from Osprey. I was skimming my husband's copy. The book looks like an excellent source with many citations from period documents, photos of artifacts, period tomb carvings, and period illustrations. I think it covers 1250 to 1600.

[Ronan220]

awesome thanks

[Yojimbo]

Rise from the ashes !!!
The bascinet was the common helm until the early 1500s .....later, burgonet, morion, and cabbaset. At least 1 tomb has what looks like to me a T - face barbute. A couple of other possibilities would be a simple " skull " ( mentioned by an English writer in the 1500s and Kettle Helm.
One interesting helm is a bascinet with what looks like a Corinthian helmet face ( nasal, cheeks )
Body defense ....the base for any Gallowglass armor is the Cotun. Basically a aketon that reached to the knees with long sleeves. Quilting was stuffed into long vertical tubes.
Mail hauberk would be the standard for gallowglass as well. One account also metions jacks, so a brigandine or coat of plates, while not the norm, is acceptable.
Almost all the tomb effigies, whether they are wearing hauberks or not, have a mail standard. A peculiar form seems to be a standard that comes to a acute point, like a triangle in front.
Hidden elbows, hidden legs complete the outfit.
A large two handed axe, called a Sparth, was the primary weapon, alsthough several images show 2 handed swords. Single handed swords were also carried. Most had distinct fittings. Swords native to Ireland had spatulate gaurds and ring pommels. Highland swords tend to have sloping gaurds with short langets. several of the Highland swords have lobed pommels, a holdover from their Norse ancestry.
A long knife, called a Scian was carried in a scabbard hung around the neck according to some written sources.
A round shield would be normal. At least 2 of the highland effiges show heater shields.

I'll add some pics and sources later.

[Foxman]

I'm actually looking at putting togeather a plausible Gallowglass kit. Though I'm looking more towards the 1250-1300 end of the timeline.

Tibbie you mentioned a new Galloglass book from Osprey, would you happen to have then name (isbn#?) of it?

Thanks!

[Peikko]

[quote="Foxman"]I'm actually looking at putting togeather a plausible Gallowglass kit. Though I'm looking more towards the 1250-1300 end of the timeline.

Tibbie you mentioned a new Galloglass book from Osprey, would you happen to have then name (isbn#?) of it?

Thanks![/quote]

ISBN 978-1-84603-577-7

[RandallMoffett]

Just found this while looking for something completely different.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/sho ... nd-Ireland

Looking at the hand drawings the person has here they look good to my understanding but wanted to see what others had to say.

RPM

[Yojimbo]

[quote="RandallMoffett"]Just found this while looking for something completely different.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/sho ... nd-Ireland

Looking at the hand drawings the person has here they look good to my understanding but wanted to see what others had to say.

RPM[/quote]

All the images are correct. The last two, the hand drawn ones, represent a Galloglass from the mid 1500s on, the other is a kern. Ignore the gamers commentary.

[RandallMoffett]

Yojimbo,

Not sure where gamers come up with some of it but it sure is funny.

Thought the drawings were pretty good though.

RPM

[Laiodheach the Bear]

Anyone know where i can find a nice pattern for the saffron shirt and maybe something like an aketon they used.

[robstout]

Reconstructing history has a nice Leine pattern, which would work for your saffron shirt. It's a very easy pattern...

http://store.reconstructinghistory.com/ ... leine.html

Robert The Stout.

[B. Patricius]

I was able to figure out the pattern for the mail mantles on the gallowglass effigies seen in Iona and Roscommon.
effigies


my work:

basically they are four trapezoids seamed together with the coif in the middle

my lady was the one to figure it out, I tried every known way of triangles, diamonds, etc for about a month, then she looked at it, saw one of my 90 degree triangles, put it to a rectangle, then another opposite to the other rectangle, and went "Isn't that it?"
Oh, how I love her

[Targer]

Nice work..attention to detail pays off.

[B. Patricius]

Nice work..attention to detail pays off.

Indeed it does. I'm more for experimental archaeology and living history anyway, for me, it's always the details. Also, believe it or not, doing a coif mantle in this manner is far easier than the normal ones with expansion rows and trying to hide them so they're harder to see.

[Scott4Now]

Hello all,
I'm a returning scaian and I am also interested in a gallóglaigh persona. I've done a bit of research and will include links to some of what I have found. 1st and foremost Roman you don't have to change your name yes the galloglaigh originated in Scotland and the first galloglaigh 160 of them in fact were part of a dowry. they did originate from Hebrides Scot and Norse bloodlines, but there is also reference supporting hebrides of gaelic or irish and norse lineage. The Norse didn't stop at Scotland there is historical evidence of Norse colonies in both Ireland and Scotland. There is also historical data supported and presented from the Dublin Museum of galloglaigh irish families. and the major houses and lesser know houses. The bascinet is the correct helm and from what I can find seems the standard through until the end of the galloglaigh in the 1600's with the advent of pikeman and gunpowder weapons. everything I have found lists the primary weapon of the galloglaigh as the sparth or galloglaigh axe. I have also found evidence to support the use of both the Scotish claymore, and a Gaelic or irish two handed sword as well as the Irish baskethilted sword.

Interesting links to info I've found and in most cases supported through multiply sources.

http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_armies_irish.php (very interesting essay on the history and arms and armor and some hearldry and such)

http://www.scottishorigenes.com/content ... rrior-clan (article on galloglaigh Irish families)

http://what-when-how.com/medieval-irela ... l-ireland/ (great picture of real archeological Irish/ galloglaigh helm)

http://thelastgaelicempire.webs.com/gallowglasses.htm (another article on history of and lists some battles that galloglaigh were know to have fought in)

Sorry about the size of this next link but it is a really great image of a galloglaigh axe

http://www.google.com/imgres?client=fir ... =121&ty=83

[Jehan de Pelham]

A friend of mine is interested in doing a Gallowglass portrayal. I dragged through this thread and some other websites and put this together for him out of a selfish interest in not having him show up in a Braveheart coat of plates for his hard kit and Clan MacDuifuis kilt complete with Braveheart Clayghmoragh (pronounce that in the worst Scottish accent you can muster with extra gutteral "gh"es). He sent me a couple of pictures which put me at my ease:

Tim Gallowglass.JPG (62.51 KiB) Viewed 2176 times

Tim Helmet.JPG (37.32 KiB) Viewed 2176 times

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It appears you are coming along quite well.

The Gallowglass are a type of warrior that to me is enticing and dangerous. Enticing because they were badasses. Dangerous because there's always a lot of hokum and popular myths out there, and it's easy to get wrapped up in popular images. Plus, Jesu, is there a people and culture that has been more raped by Hollywood? I know a lot of folks had a hard time coming to the realization that Mel Gibson lied to them about how Scots ought to look in the 1990s. The opportunity for wasted effort is big. The biggest issue is first sifting the romantic image away from the historical reality and then to categorize the eras of Gallowglass into early (13th Century), mid (14th and 15th Century), and late (16th Century). This is problematic because there's not much data for the mid and early eras.

In the discussion that follows, my feeling is that for a Gallowglass portrayal you have the flexibility to draw from both Irish and Scots elements. I consider the cultures interchangeable for the Gallowglass as expat Scots to Ireland, with Scots elements being more prominent early on and Irish elements being more prominent later as generations followed generations in Ireland. As I don't know what you know, I hope I am not sharing information you already have or if I am, you won't think it boring.

I've taken some time today to comb the internet as your interest has kindled my interest. So, I went a little internet crazy for a couple of hours:

This website looks hokey as hell in my browser but the pictures are great: http://www.enjoy-irish-culture.com/gallowglass.html Those lower pictures with the mail and the older style helmets are badass and the link to the Claiomh group ( http://www.claiomh.ie/ ) is priceless for the 15th-16th century mail clad look though with the older style helmets much of the kit gets to be used across a wide range of eras.

This website is formatted terribly, but there's some good info here: http://www.geocities.ws/na_degadmedieva ... pment.html Specifically, you need two boys carry your shit, and three cows for your quarterly pay. Some other information: for 14th Century portrayal, an open-faced bascinet is the ticket for a helmet.

This is another Gallowglass website I found: http://home.earthlink.net/~rggsibiba/ht ... ohist.html A lot of information here. I dare you to portray the dude a little ways down on the left. You know which one I mean. BIG axe, little arms.

Sword: I was going to joke with you about getting an Albion Gallowglass--you beat me to the punch! It's an amazing sword but quite costly at $1400 these days! Clearly you're okay with spending some money and that is good--this can be a costly hobby! The Type XIX is a sword that will serve you through late 14th, 15th, and early 16th century portrayals. The ring pommel is at least a 16th century style (perhaps earlier?), but the sword shape is seen from the late 14th onward. I read these articles here: http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_spotxix.html and here: http://www.myarmoury.com/review_alb_gallow.html . To me, it has a look of 15th century onward.

Spar/Sparth: Classic. Thank you for going that route and not some kind of over the top Claidheamh da laimh as your two-handed weapon--those are so over-represented and especially the quatrefoil versions or the "Braveheart Sword." Although the big swords are used later for sure. Really, for a big sword you could use any "sword of war" which means any sword proper to the era with a blade of 40" or more. There are some Irish-Scottish examples that you can find for modeling after, however.

Here is some discussion of the employment of the Sparth: http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showth ... st-good-PR

Helmet/Armor: The helmet is very pretty and White Rose is also no semi-skilled shop. As for it being early 16th century, yeah, it comes from a 1521 source--the Durer Gallowglass woodcut--so I would say that it represents a 16th century helmet. I do know from discussions that I have had with others that the Scots and Irish adopted the best technology they could and used the same gear that the English and other countries did *when they could get it.* So, a 14th century representation of what you have might have bog or turnshoes, an open-faced bascinet, and a mail haubergeon--and then different tableware, etc as you have much more choice in the 16th century as opposed to the 14th century.

Ionar: The Ionar is one of those troublesome things. There's most definitely a difference between a 14th century ionar and a 16th century ionar. I think the best way to shorthand it is "An outergarment appropriate to the times" which for the 14th century is probably pretty close to typical European tunics (maybe like this: http://www.celticwebmerchant.eu/a-28558 ... lic-ionar/ ) and in the 16th century the more renaissance-cut garment shown here: http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=27625 Here is what I consider a reasonably-researched look at clothes that you might find interesting: http://coblaith.net/EarlyGaelicDress/Ea ... ss10bw.pdf

I think that like our group, an approach is to work towards having some leeway that you can use to go either direction. In your case, that could be as simple as a change of helmet--that would be a long conversation and a lot of research. Compaignye du Chalis has kit that spans a 50 year period though we are shooting for 1380-1390 (I think! Folks help me out here it's been so long since we've had a conversation about it!). I have parts of a 15th century harness from 1430-1440 and may get more of it. I like the idea of retaining flexibility to be able to participate in a variety of timelines, but that of course costs.

Here's a thread with some source pictures: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthre ... 2056925442 I'll draw your attention to how the images change over time. The 16th century looks are different than the circa 1400 sketch from a (possibly lost or damaged?) fresco of which a photo confirming that it is damaged is shown later in that thread. The c. 1400 look is pretty universal to Europe--some kind of open conical helm, a tunic of some kind, chausses (or not--it seems like the Scots and Irish were much more inclined to barefootedness and bare-leggedness), and turnshoes with a belt.

This web page has some information--mostly on late 15th century and 16th century representations: http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_armies_irish.php The pictures down below from a-j are of particular interest because you can use them as guides to how you could look depending on when. The e-h looks with one of the i helmets would be perfect for 14th or 15th century. a-d would be later 15th century/16th century, or e-h with the 15th/16th century helmets.

Books as always are your friend, and as a source of knowledge of the background and roots of the Gallowglass this might be good, and looks quite academic: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/189841 ... E&n=283155 It comes recommended by Kel Rekuta, a long-term member of AEMMA and a bit of a stickler for data.

Lastly, as I need to go help out around the house, I drop this linkbomb: http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic ... sc&start=0

-----------------

So, definitely some things to think about.

I think for an SCA-specific portrayal, a kidney belt under a lightly padded arming garment and over that a mail hauberk with loose trews over low-profile leg armor and low-profile arm harness under a leine is the way to go. The helmet changes with the times being either a kettlehelm or an open bascinet with camail--particularly that peculiarly-patterned one shown above--for 14th and 15th century or the billed Durer-style helmet for 16th century.