Irish Crossbowman 1360

[Gryffinclaw]

I am looking for information on being a 1320-1400 Irish crossbowman. I have read that the Scots and Irish were used widely as mercenaries or hired companies in Europe, France in particular.

[Robert of Canterbury]

Was the crossbow very prevalent in Ireland at the time?

Was it only an english garrison weapon?

Were Companies raised in Ireland, or is it just individual Irishmen seving in foreign companies?

I suspect you will be indistinguishable from a Genoese,
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=45328

[Chris Cottrell]

Hi there,

I've been researching this quite a bit over the last couple of years and can maybe help out.

The Irish were not known for their crossbowmen. However, we cannot assume an always/never position on the subject and instead look at it from a class position. If an Irish mercenary band adopted crossbows, you can probably assume they were kitted like Kerns or possibly something more anglicized (lower class Irish folded into some Scotch or English irregular unit).

For the Irish look, you probably can't go wrong with trews and ionar for soft kit. Arms will include small shield (like a buckler or targe), scian and a set of "darts" (gae or bir-een). A sword is probably on the unlikely side, but not impossible. You could also wear a leine and aketon (aka gambeson).

[Gryffinclaw]

Cool well thats a good start. I have not had any success finding effigies or artwork on the subject but I am not giving up yet.

[talaananthes]

For the Irish look, you probably can't go wrong with trews and ionar for soft kit. Arms will include small shield (like a buckler or targe), scian and a set of "darts" (gae or bir-een). A sword is probably on the unlikely side, but not impossible. You could also wear a leine and aketon (aka gambeson).

These are names of clothing that are valid for over a thousand years, during which time there's a great deal of variety in styles.

What do these garments look like in the 14th century?

[RandallMoffett]

The medieval seal of Dublin shows a fortification with two crossbowmen with kettle hats on..... might work for you even if it was more or less the Norman/English capital of Ireland.

RPM

[Gryffinclaw]

Check out this 14th century Irish helm and give your thoughts. I am looking for more examples if possible.

As for the Dublin crest I have been unable to find one with enough detail to see the image.

[Chris Cottrell]

These are names of clothing that are valid for over a thousand years, during which time there's a great deal of variety in styles.

What do these garments look like in the 14th century?

You're right. Sometimes I forget that I can't just say something and instantly transmit information into the brain of the other person.

What is tricky is all my main sources are in print and I can't find some of the images on the internet. McClintock is one of my major go to sources for images and a pretty solid discourse on what was being worn and when.

First: the helmet. That and something like it are all over the art from the period. You can't go wrong with it. The art suggest more of the helmets were open faced, but still of that peaked bascinet type.

Trews: Tighter-fitting full length examples with stirrups were found in a Co. Sligo bog with a couple of knee-length ionar that had high collars and a boatload of cloth buttons up the front. These are 13th century, so I can't vouch for the jackets, but the trews in that style stick around long enough for Yeats to argue that they need to be abandoned as "official" Irish dress because the rest of Europe thought Irish clothes look too much like pajamas.

Leine? Likely. Enlisted mercenary will probably wear a shorter one, but they go down the the ankles if you can afford it. You can do a T-tunic with an open neck and gores down the side and it will be right. The big sleeves seem to be a late 15th development. Anything with a vaguely Norman cut will fit in if you go shorter. The ionar mentioned above look pretty Norman to me but the trews that go with them are 100% Irish.

On the ionar: There appear to be a few possibilities. One is a wool "overtunic". Another is a variation on the tunic that is open in the front and closed with a belt "kimono" style. If you are especially posh, you can probably do the fitted Sligo ionar with all the buttons.

An option if you're going as a poor enlisted mercenary is just the trews and ionar. That seems to be a common outfit for the working man in any period. Only the cut has changed.

Oddly, I left out the brat originally because it's a given. If you're going Irish, you are wearing a brat. It will be the nicest thing in your kit. Mine is shaggy wool that cost too much money. Much art depicts chiefs riding into the fray wearing theirs. Kings, apparently, wear red. Other nobles get black and yellow. By the late 15th century everyone in Ireland is apparently wearing yellow.

Armor: you can't go wrong with a nice hot sweaty gambeson that goes down to your knees. Variations on a coat-of-plates are in order and some kind of lorica-looking torso armor shows up on some effigies, making that a possibility as well.

Your scian is a single edged, very pointy fighting knife that seems to be descended from the seax. It's very pointy and gets up to shortsword length. If you must have a sword there's some indication that the ring-pommel starts showing up around the 14th century. I'm assuming, as a crossbowman, you're not going to be using the axe.

That might be a good jumping off point. Definitely let me know if you find some cool sources or images. Anything that expands the knowledge base is a very welcome gift.

[talaananthes]

Thanks. I'm actually in the process of going mid 14th c. Hiberno-Norman, from a family of mixed Gaelic and Norman heritage under the Burkes of what is now east Galway, c. 1350. I've got a very good knowledge of what these garments look like in the early Medieval time frame, and a decent understanding of their latest medieval/early modern descendants, but had never gotten around to figuring out what Gaelic dress looks like in the 14th c.

I have access to a university research library, JSTOR, and a few other online databases, would you mind posting a few books or articles that include information about this? Weapons as well, for that matter.

Thanks!

[Gryffinclaw]

Conn, thanks for the great info. I will keep posting what I find.

[Gryffinclaw]

Oddly, I left out the brat originally because it's a given. If you're going Irish, you are wearing a brat. It will be the nicest thing in your kit. Mine is shaggy wool that cost too much money. Much art depicts chiefs riding into the fray wearing theirs. Kings, apparently, wear red. Other nobles get black and yellow. By the late 15th century everyone in Ireland is apparently wearing yellow.

I did come across this while seaching Brehon's Law. The anchient legal code in ireland.

Brehon’s law (the set of laws that governed ancient Ireland) dictated which specific colors a person’s clothes could be:
“The son of a king of Erin shall wear satin and red clothes...''

“The sons of the inferior classes of chieftains shall wear black, yellow, or gray clothing..."

''The sons of the lowest class of chieftain shall wear old clothes...''

Material for garments varied with social class. The lower classes, which made up the majority of the population, wore clothing made of wool or linen. Since silk and satin had to be imported, only the very rich could afford garments made from such materials.

[Gryffinclaw]

I found this description of trews which is gaelic for trousers.

The Trews
The trews or trousers found with the jacket are of a typical medieval style which we know to have persisted in Ireland until at least the 17th century. The legs and body are made of two different fabrics. Both are woven in a 2/1 twill, but the legs are 18 threads per inch while the top is a much coarser 15 threads per inch. Other trews of the period (most notably the Killery trews) are composed of a solid coloured top and checked legs. There is no indication that the Kilcommon trews had legs of a different colour. However, it is true that chemical tests to determine the original colour of the garment have not been performed.

The top of the trews seem very crudely made. The fabric is simply wrapped around the body and joined on the left side with a running stitch. The side seam measures 233/8" long. The casing which holds the drawstring is on a separate 3½" strip which overlaps the the trews body by ½" and is roughly stitched at both edges (the strip to the trews body on the inside and vice versa on the outside). The casing is a simple 1" of fabric folded over and tacked into place. The waist of the garment measures 29" and the hips 42". The rise measures 14". Despite period references that Irish trews were worn low on the hips, it is clear that this pair had a full bottom. The great amount of patching on the rump indicates that the wearer may have been a horseman. There is no codpiece on the garment and the tailor who examined the garment in the forties seems to have thought that the wearer cut a hole in the front of the pants to serve as a "fly". This hole is not finished in any manner, but I cannot say whether the tailor is right in his assumption.

The legs, however, are as tailored as the top is crude. The pieces are cut on the bias to afford a tight fit without constricting the movement of the wearer. A seam runs from foot to buttocks up the back of the legs. The tops of the legs, which are square, insert into a slit in the pants top, giving the extra mobility of a gusset. The point begins 10½" down from the waist band on the left leg and 9½" down on the right. This "point" is 10" to 11" long along the grain on the inner side and 13¼" to 14½" long on the outer side. The widest part of the leg, where the point diminishes, is 18". The legs are 13" wide just below the knee and 10" around the ankle. The seven buttons and buttonholes that shape the lower legs are spread out over 10". The overall length of the legs, from crotch to foot, is 34".

If one were to graph these measurements, one would find that the fabric required for these leg pieces was over 44" wide. This width of fabric is not seen in any other garment in Ireland at that time. Looms all over Europe produced cloth from 22" to 27" wide but no greater than that. However, there is a simpler explanation that an inordinately wide Irish loom.

The knees of the Kilcommon trews are very heavily patched. If one examines the fabric under these patches, "slits" can be seen in the fabric. Upon closer examination, it appears that two widths of fabric were joined selvedge to selvedge to make it possible to cut such long trews on the bias. The fabric width required would be about 22" wide, which conforms with fabric widths we know to have existed in Ireland at that time. The fabric of the trews has not been scientifically dated. But it is this author's guess that the knee patches were sewn onto the original before wearing in an effort to keep the trews from spliting at a very tenuous place. This technique can be seen today in blazers with leather elbow patches. It is not unreasonable to suggest such a technique was used in the 16th century as well.

[Gryffinclaw]

Here is a great link I found talking about Irish armor styles of the time. I am very interested in learning more about the Cotun (irish leather gambison). Anyone got further references?

http://www.stoccata.org/stoccata.nsf/Pa ... 5E0027897D

Also here is a great pic

Thomas Mac William Burke, d.1402. (MS1440 fol 21r)

[Gryffinclaw]

Another pic from the time from a Irish story about Sir Lancelot. Notice the armor pieces laying around him.

[Gryffinclaw]

effigy of an Irish warrior. Still looking for pics of archers and crossbow tho.

[Gryffinclaw]

I found this great link to the national museum in Ireland. I am looking for photos of this exibition if anyone has had the opportunity to attend in person.

http://www.museum.ie/en/exhibition/medi ... -1550.aspx

[Chris Cottrell]

Hey,

In the very unlikely chance that you didn't see this post:

What the heck, I'll add my little contribution.


http://coblaith.net/EarlyGaelicDress/default.html

It's basic stuff, just an introduction. Complimented with the indepth knowledge of folks like Kass, Saverio and the gang over at the livinghistory.ie forum, it might be useful.

I'm personally proud of my brat-folding hypothesis.

The pdf is really informative (even though he's primarily focused on an earlier period than yours) but the really important part is that he's got info on all the same primary sources I use and where to find many of them. The books are especially good. One of the bigger issues you face doing Irish stuff is whether or not the artist doing the depiction is either Irish or going from firsthand knowledge. Anytime it's not first-hand, you can count on things being either off or wrong.

[Gryffinclaw]

So this is what I have learned so far about archery in 14th century Ireland.

Scottish born or Irish trained shortbowmen arrived in Ireland at least with Edward the Brus campaign in Ireland against the Anglo lords around 1320. Scottish troops tended to mimick English troops in armor and it is likely they used crossbows as well at least for castle defense. There is indication of crossbows in Ulster (mostly irish/scottish settlement) during this time period. Still searching for images though.

Anglo lords had crossbowmen as early at 1298 in Ireland in small numbers as shown in inventory files from the late 13th century and the earlier partial English invasion of Ireland.

By mid 14th century most of the Anglo-Irish lords rejected English control and became Irish chieftans, adopting irish culture but maintained the armor and weapons from thier previous English connections.

This probably accounts for the armor looking as if it was decades behind the current styles.

[William Redfox]

Art MacMurrough Kavanagh on the right, riding to meet the earl of Gloucester. Jean Creton's ''Histoire du roy d'Angleterre Richard II


Annals of the four masters
http://www.archive.org/details/annalsof ... 03ocleuoft
http://www.archive.org/details/annalsof ... 04ocleuoft

Cheers
Matt