The Armour Archive

So what I am looking at doing is a late 15th - early 16th century English Infantryman, but as an SCA legal rapier list fighter.

Fighting outfit would be Charles De Blois style gambeson from revival/Ice Falcon(which I am told passes punch test) modified with the 3 inch over lap, gypsy peddler venetian style breeches or straight leg tight pants, appropriate socks as required, and ankle boots.
My weapon would be modified with a side sword or back sword style hilt. I am thinking of using the Hanwei side sword hilt as I have seen an early 15th century version that was similar.

I was a heavy fighter, but due to a back injury that may be a thing of the past. **I have most of the items listed already.

All of this I believe fits proper timeframe, but I could be off. I want to get opinions and have the gallery maybe make alternate suggestions. Thanks for any suggestions.

chaosclyve wrote:My apologies, I miss typed this morning, I meant late 15th - early 16th centuries. To clarify the gambeson is in the grande assiette styling; i.e. Charles De Blois styling, documented through late 15th century pictorially. As for country, I would like to say English, however I am open for discussion.

Thanks again.

I can't imagine that that "gambeson" is at all contemporary with the pants you want. For early 16thC doublets of defence try a heavy normal doublet with a leather jerkinover it or a padded garment made more in the cut and style of that period.

The pants are not a sticking point, as I can get an earlier style pants. The earliest documentation I could find on the Venetian pants was 1583 ( a bit later than I was hoping). The gambeson pattern/styling is showed in paintings into the mid to late 1500's, which was why I was thinking of going this route. I planned on shortening the gambeson, which seemed more period. I would like to find the best way to incorporate the gambeson, as I am not at all fond of doublets. Any ideas would be great.

Simon

Here is the bad news, historically speaking men of the late 15th and early 16th century wore full hosen, a doublet, and a gown. The Charles De Blois style gambeson is nearly 150 year old at this point and far out of fashion.

The King's Servants - men's dress at the accession of Henry VII is the best book I can recommend for this time frame; it is small but it has great historical info with illustrations on what the items look like.

You've got evidence of the CdB pourpoint in the middle of C16? Really? I am very keen to see those paintings. If you would kindly cite those sources, I'll be much obliged.

If I might offer some advice: Start with a study of the class of man you'll be portraying. Is he a peasant, yeoman, or gentleman? Once that's answered, do some general overviews of contemporaneous art, looking for examples of men of your class. That'll give you an idea of where to start. Civilian garments are a great place to begin.

I can give you a fairly cursory overview. To begin, put those baggy breeches right out of your mind. They are utterly inappropriate. ~1500 is the age of the fitted, joined hose, complete with codpiece. The hose point to a well-fitted doublet. On your feet should be "bear-paw" shoes, but without the Landsknecht slashes, or pointed-toe turnshoes, or round-toed, over-the-ankle boots. Over the doublet should go a gown (or two, depending on class).

Here is a painting from a Flemish version of Roman de la Rose, ca. 1490-1510:



Note the differences in attire between the liveried servants - in blue - and the upper-class nobs lounging by the fountain.



These men are all upper-class, except the liveried servant standing almost off-screen at left.

Really, you should be looking at lower-class men, men of the laboring classes. Those are the men who made up the bulk of the common foot.

Go to http://www.wga.hu - Click the Search tab. Under "Time-Line", select 1501-1550. Under "School", select Flemish. Under "Form", select either Illumination or Painting; look through Illumination first. Taking careful note of the dates on the art returned by the search, look at the laboring men in the images.

Look specifically for Gerard David's The Judgment of Cambyses, ca. 1498 - a treasure trove of men's attire.

Edited to add: James is dead on with his book recommendation. Indispensable.

Simply put, there's not a terrible lot of difference in dirt-common mens' attire from ca. 1350 to 1550.

Now, for specifically military attire, it is my considered opinion that the CdB coat isn't appropriate. That garment is very distinctly C14; arming garments changed dramatically between the CdB and ca. 1500.

You're looking for a padded or many-layered jack something like this:

http://www.deborahloughcostumes.com/pad ... bjack.html

The Ordinances of Louis XI, ca. 1480, prescribe 25 to 30 layers of cloth with a leather outer layer if possible. That's actually overkill for SCA rapier. You can get the right "look" and proper protection with much fewer layers.

For the rest of your harness, you need little. A sallet with a perf-plate grille will do the trick; Windrose (I think) has stocked these in days past, and the fellows at Darkwood can also be helpful. The helmet should look like this:



We (Reconstructing History; see link in sig) have patterns for the clothing if you can't find it to buy.

Good luck!

Bob

Hi. Chaosclyve. I do rapier, and I'm also interested in early-16th-century England and Scotland.

The Osprey book Armies of Henry VIII may be a useful starting place for visual references. The Tudor Tailor is another book I'd recommend.

Instead of a gambeson or pourpoint, a quilted/padded jack would be more appropriate. For rapier, you don't want something so thick that you can't call hits, which are much lighter than those with rattan. In fact, you may want to forgo any padded armor unless you're doing Cut and Thrust. A "mock" brigandine or "mock" jack of plates would be another option.

Some other places for visual references are the various Books of Hours at Karen Larsdatter's site, larsdatter.com. There are a number from the early 1500s that show clothing of various classes. I've also been looking at Durer for images of early-16th-century "peasant" clothing.

I think for SCA rapier that a high-necked, long-sleeved male gown would be more likely to pass inspection than a deep-necked, shorter-sleeved gown.

As far as headwear, there are some pictures from the 16th century of military men wearing close-fitting hoods in winter, there are Germans/Swiss with wool coif-like hats, and there are peasants wearing hoods or coifs.

Sallets with perf plate: I'd love to find one myself. Rapier helmets of any kind are hard to find. Marco Borromei has some converted import sallets, I think, and Icefalcon sells a fencing helmet that looks sort of like some early-16th-century visored sallets.

Yeah- I would have to say a Charles De Blois style "gambeson" even in the late 1400s is quite a stretch. I suspect you are looking at later re-tracings of earlier fechtbuchs of garments with the deeply inset sleeves. Certainly these do not cross into the 1500s!
I think maybe you will need to nail down your period a bit more as therange you are talking about has some pretty dramatic fashion changes in it.

Henrician Tudor era soldiers.

Those are great images- Also they are not unlike English versions of the Italian Marrozzo "Oprah Nova" woodcuts - so it would seem fitting for fencing. The Italian ones do not have the mail - they have buff leather jerkins.

Right, just remove the mail and add a nice burgonet or morion - no fencing masks!

One of the reference sites I used for justifying (in my mind) where I was going with my ideas came from this site (and one or two others which I do not have at the moment)

http://www.cottesimple.com/blois_and_sl ... erview.htm

So since it seems my idea has not panned out and since I have already invested the money into several pairs of gypsy peddler venetians, I probably just need to continue down this style path. So I guess I am going to need to look at the late 1500's styles more closely and put something together. I appreciate all of the references which I shall use to make this all happen.

This is not a major criticism but you do need to be careful with your research. The Cottesimple page doesn't mention a single date beyond the mid 15th century. So that should be a red flag to move on.

Also, one thing to keep in mind when researching "Tudor" history and fashion. There is a major difference between Elizabethan Tudor (Elizabeth I) and Herician Tudor (Henry VIII). They are not completely interchangeable as you are finding out. Keep all your research focused on England. The fashions of the Spanish, Germans and French were different even if only mildly so.

The cheapest way to get an idea of early tudor fashion in a military sense would be to pick up a few of the Osprey books that focus on the first half of the 16th century. There are far better sources out there but these little books will give you clear pictures of what the footman generally looked like.

I appreciate the information. I did realize I was pushing it a bit for time frames I was looking at and even though I could get within 50-60 years a lot changed in that time. I just dislike doublets and was looking into some alternatives. I will continue my research and see what I can find. Like I said previously thanks to everyone.

What do you dislike about doublets?

Maybe there are solutions to the things you dislike about them.

Honestly I dislike the fru fru of most of the rapier outfits, which is why I was trying to find a military solution. I want something simple, which is why I was trying to go with an arming cote/gambeson. I like long jackets maybe like HRM Vlad's fencing coat. I know his persona russian, but I do not know what period.

If you don't like doublets (what are you going to use to hold up your hosen?) then just go with the top layer of a coat with bases like this guy in the middle -



I'm not really sure why you want to do a Tudor soldier if you don't really care for anything about them except that they are in the right time to do rapier. What about looking at the other European cultures of the same period and find something you DO like and make that. I think you will be happier than trying to fit all these other fashions and styles from different times into a mold that it won't fit. (Try German, their stuff can be rather butch...)

If you want to look like a Tudor foot soldier then you need to wear what a Tudor foot soldier wore, otherwise you are going to like like, well, something else.

*Not harshing on you, just being honest,

Okay, I just checked out the Gypsy Peddler site, and yeah, a tad foofy. But real soldiers didn't look like that.

Check out Reconstructing History's website. I'm not biggest fan of their patterns, I prefer to make my own, but they are a good place to start. Check out their renaissance section and find what fits the time period your going for. I might suggest the Elizabethan Sea Dogs one. It could utilize the Venetains you already own and it's not too foofy either.

Thank you, Sir Mons! That was good advice you posted earlier about the differences in fashion from place to place and decade to decade.

Note we can be reached for consultation via toll-free telephone at 1.866.518.1558.

We can make a fella look like a soldier.

Bob

Doublets don't have to look fru-fru. For heavy fighting, I wear a jack of plates, which is essentially a doublet with plates sandwiched between the layers. I used a natural color denim for the shell. Now, this wouldn't work for early Tudor, but for later Elizabethan...

Robert The Stout

I think where my post has gone horribly wrong was I was asked to specify country of origin before my post was approved, so in my bad judgment I said English, my initial post did not specify country just looking to be an infantryman from the late 15-16th c. I was then hoping to get suggestions on country and such as Sir Mons and other have given.

***I do understand that doublets do not have to be fru fru and come in a bunch of styles. I guess I just want something different and not so cookie cutter.

Thanks,

I strongly understand and appreciate your desire for something different. I'm female, but dressing as an early-16th-century common man for rapier fighting: fitted hood, linen shirt, very simple jacket/coat/front-opening tunic, tight pants, socks pulled over the knee, leather ankle boots.

I see you're in Ponte Alto. Have you talked to Mistress Belphoebe (Laurel and White Scarf) or your Baron, Master James, and Baroness Katherine? All three are costuming experts.

I forgot to mention another book, Everyday Dress in the Renaissance (Trachtenbuch of Christoph Weiditz). Weiditz was a traveler-artist in the 1540s who recorded costumes of places he had been to or heard about. It's a really good source for Spanish costume of that era, and also includes sailors' clothing. If you want to do something different, 16th-century seamen are underrepresented in rapier. Plus, common sailors can wear loose trousers and loose jackets.

The least cookie-cutter fencer I've seen in northern Atlantia is Kenji--he does Japanese.

Have you looked into Central and Eastern European styles from ca. 1500? They may differ from Western European styles; I think some of those soldiers appear in German art from the era.

If you like gambeson-type garments, perhaps consider an early-16th-century conquistador, with quilted cotton armor?

Anyway, good luck and I hope to meet you at some northern Atlantian events.

chaosclyve wrote:So what I am looking at doing is a late 15th - early 16th century English Infantryman, but as an SCA legal rapier list fighter.

Fighting outfit would be Charles De Blois style gambeson from revival/Ice Falcon(which I am told passes punch test) modified with the 3 inch over lap, gypsy peddler venetian style breeches or straight leg tight pants, appropriate socks as required, and ankle boots.
My weapon would be modified with a side sword or back sword style hilt. I am thinking of using the Hanwei side sword hilt as I have seen an early 15th century version that was similar.

I was a heavy fighter, but due to a back injury that may be a thing of the past. **I have most of the items listed already.

All of this I believe fits proper timeframe, but I could be off. I want to get opinions and have the gallery maybe make alternate suggestions. Thanks for any suggestions.

Others with more experience than me have commented on the clothing, but I did want to mention something with the blades. Some of the sidesword/backsword blades are legal for cut and thrust, but not regular heavy rapier. Check the approved blades list at http://sca.org/officers/marshal/combat/rapier/ before buying to make sure that you can use whatever blade you get. If you've got any questions, I'm the regional rapier deputy for your area and would be happy to help out.

Thanks Antonio! What I have done is actually modified a hanwei side sword hilt to work with a zen warrior 37" shlager blade. I am working on making it a bit tighter as it has a bit too much play right now.

chaosclyve wrote:Thanks Antonio! What I have done is actually modified a hanwei side sword hilt to work with a zen warrior 37" shlager blade. I am working on making it a bit tighter as it has a bit too much play right now.

Cool, that will work. Leather washers might help getting it a bit tighter.

Another really good resource for 16th century fencing costuming are the fencing manuals themselves. They don't cover all countries(mostly Germany and Italy), or even the entire period, but they are often lavishly illustrated.

A great example is this 1560 version of Meyer:
http://www6.ub.lu.se/externt/dokument/m ... _meyer.pdf

or this 1550 Paulus Hector Mair
http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/phpBB3/vi ... 19&t=11988

A pretty exhaustive list of online manuals can be found here:
http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=25