1340's Hungarian

[Russ Mitchell]

I'm assembling a 1340s Hungarian kit that could be helpful in a sort of PIAB kind of way. If anybody is interested, I can document it as I go.

[RandallMoffett]

I'd love to see what you come up with. I have thought about doing this with the kit I am working on as I already have much of the information.

RPM

[Fearghus Macildubh]

Please do. I find Central/Eastern European stuff hella cool.

[Ernst]

Yes, please.

[Russ Mitchell]

Okay. I'll start putting together notes, then.

[Galfrid atte grene]

I suppose the Chronica Pictum will be a major source?

[Russ Mitchell]

Yes, though not the only one. I will probably have to do it as a blog post initially in order to get all the needed images up online. Italian wallpaintings and other visual sources will show in visually.

My wife and I have an unexpected project, so this is likely to take a good week or so before I can start doing a writeup.

[johnpowers]

I'm posting so that this stays in my list of threads. Very very interested, by the way. Abandoning my previous Roman (SCA) persona due to the collapse of a warband, going with my Magyar roots, methinks.

[Galfrid atte grene]

I'm curious about the Italian wall paintings. Was north east Italy closely related to Hungary during this time? I know there are lots of surviving frescos in Slovenian churches which are a bit closer geographically.

[Russ Mitchell]

In this time a very, very significant number of these were Hungarian allies against Joanna of Naples and the French crown b/c of dynastic, mercantile, and *especially* papal politics.

[zsiggy66]

I am interested in seeing the research you have.

Gyula Zsigmond Szekely
Kingdom of Calontir
Barony of Three Rivers

[Russ Mitchell]

Thank you all for your patience. My wife and I are in the process of publishing articles on the Neapolitan Succession War for for issues iii.4 and iii.5 of Medieval Warfare: http://www.karwansaraypublishers.com/cm ... rfare.html. That will provide some historical data which should be useful, but I am going on the presumption that most of the people interested in this subject want less of "how to walk the talk" and more of "how to look the look," so this will focus primarily on items needed for dress.

Sources for fourteenth-century Hungarian arms and armor:

The Chronicon Pictum (Hungarian Illuminated Chronicle): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronicon_Pictum
Shows Hungarian knightly personae wearing equipment more or less in line with the Italian style of the era (making perfect sense given that Charles Robert and then Louis were Angevin kings). Sleeves are long and rather tailored even over top of the arm harness. Of note are the shields, also seen in Guiron le Courteois from Venice. The shape of the shield allows it to sit locked into the body, and the lance is placed inside the cutout, allowing one to rest one's arm on the back of it, allowing the use of a somewhat-longer lance and giving some of the advantages of the later lance-rest (while letting it be immediately discarded in case it "locks" in the target, so as not to be dismounted forcefully by one's own weapon).

Images from the Titus Livy (need to track reference - pictures too large to embed in thread. Google login required to view*):
https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos?tab= ... 6973588177

Not the helmet worn over top of the very thick felt hat in one image, and the fellow with the jacket and the big hat in the other. In the latter case, the helmet is being worn UNDER the hat (and likely with a very light padding under that). These is a different system than the helmet-and-helmet-liner system used in the west, but equally effective (and in some cases more so). I am SCA-friendly but not a Society member, and there would be a number of issues adopting either of these to that game. While hiding the full coverage SCA requires would not be hard, but if you cover your helmet with felt, you'd need to "recalibrate" for sound issues, as many hits which would be good in the game would feel notably "mushy" by comparison. The knobs and occasionally spikes (but knobs are more common) are designed to prevent the possibility of a strong direct downward strike on the helm. While effective for its task, the knob would be an added vulnerability inside the SCA game.

Compare to slightly earlier material from Transylvania. Saint Ladislas Legend Wallpainting in Karacsonyfalu, (modern-day Romania). Needs Google login.
https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos?tab= ... 8663847969

In this case, note that the Cumans who are the main enemies depicted are horse-archers, but are *not* light cavalry in the western sense, having cap-a-pie mail.

Compare to Altichiero in wallpaintings depicting soldiers whose equipment hits several of the "this is Hungarian" buttons, including the characteristic Cuman ponytail(s). Of note, Padova was a Hungarian ally contra Venice, both parties' traditional enemy in the region. Altichiero is working in the 1360s rather than the 1340s, but Hungarian mercenaries are all OVER Italy still at this point and deeply tied into affairs. Note that the turban in the crucifixion image is often, though not exclusively, associated with Cumans.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... ribolo.JPG
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... io_001.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... chero2.jpg

Compare to other Saint Ladislas legend wallpaintings, showing variations in gear:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Ladislaus_legend
http://www.zetavarpanzio.ro/image/menu/1297944865.jpg
http://www.kutyahon.de/erdelyi.templomok/gelence/

*If anyone cares to snag/resize images from my albums for direct embedding, feel free to do so.

It is important to remember when depicting Hungarians, there is absolutely no "class bias" against either archery or using lighter equipment as necessitated or desired: Hungarian squires and lesser nobles in light equipment routinely trashed their more-western counterparts fighting "in the Swabian manner" (i.e., as heavy cavalry). Hungarian magnates frequently rode, and preferred to ride, lighter horses than preferred by those in the west, and had access to a much higher number and quality breed of horse as well (Arabs, for instance, are found in the Carpathian basin in the late 13th century onwards, alongside others). Hungarians are by no means isolated from events in the rest of Europe (being close allies of the English, whose widespread adoption of hobelars in the mid 14th century may be because of Hungarian contacts, given that their mercenaries associated freely and Hungarians are known by name in English chronicles in the early stages of the HYW. If you also have an interest in the HYW I suggest checking out the above articles when they come out, as what's there may be a bit of a bombshell for you).

Matteo Villani does not go into great descriptions of Hungarian knights, but does describes Hungarian soldiers in some detail, as they were both admired and came as a bit of a shock. They wore no helmets (in this case, read as no close-faced helmets, see notes above), and wore a "farsetto di cordovano," or doublet of heavy soft leather, to which three additional layers were attached, thus forming a kind of armor all by itself. The "cordovano" in question is almost certainly the traditional "hungary-tan" leather (alum being much cheaper in medieval Hungary than in England, soft leather was neither a rarity nor expensive), impregnated with salt and alum, and then hot-stuffed with lard. The resulting leather is thus mostly waterproof and entirely impervious to horse sweat. It is likely to have been buttoned directly up the front as shown in the Titus Livy illustration, but "steppe" variations involving three buttons and a belt would easily have been possible as well, as the "double-breasted" style increases in popularity in the 14th century, possibly b/c of the cold weather. This would have been either a long-sleeved or sleeveless doublet, and in either version, though the sleeves would have been a single layer, you are basically looking at "the buff coat from hell." (As a side note, I am able to produce these for people with lots and lots of money and no time). The Titus Livy manuscript and the description from Matteo Villani are essentially in accord with what is depicted by Altichiero (though he gives a lot of drape to the torso part of the body, the folds of the sleeves are characteristically how leather behaves and *not* how cloth behaves).

Most of these soldiers used the bow and a sword (either a longsword or a sabre), and would have had a fokosbalta, a long-handled axe with a hammer backing. Think of a rectangular-headed polo mallet made of iron, one side of which looks like a short-bladed lumber axe, and you're not far off. Javelins were also not at all uncommon. They apparently did not use shields, and they were staggeringly successful during the Neapolitan Succession War, in which they literally never lost an open-field battle, and usually mauled their opponents badly.

For SCA tourney play, if you don't have a visored helm, you could thus easily get away with:
Cheap Helmet under felt hat, preferably with visor but can live without
Aventail disguising gorget and helmet lines
Buff coat from hell, long sleeved, with hidden or integral fanless elbows and guantlets as desired.
Splinted leg defenses and knees, integral, hidden or open.
Add mail to suit.
Use longsword or long-sabre in tourney, or mace plus shield, or some other combo, OR use "regular" COP-based 14th-C tourney kit, substituting the buff coat for war scenarios or during crappy weather when you don't want to be derusting your kit all the time.

[RandallMoffett]

Love it Russ! I will have to reread it to ask some questions!

Thanks!

RPM

[bravofour]

great read so far! I too am very interested in your research. I am a new comer to the forum as well as SCA (as of last week, beginning of June 2013). This is the exact time and location I am looking to do. I have very strong family ties to the area and want to do them proud with my impression. since I will be making all of my own kit id be interested in an itemized list as well as pictures as to the complete package to include regular everyday clothing. Im handy with a sewing machine and a good friend is handy with metal. I look forward to working on this. Since I am new to the period dumbed down versions would be great until I start learning the lingo.... I looked at your wall paintings but since I am very new to this period Im not exactly sure what im looking at.... I have done multiple other time periods but this predates them by a few hundred years... thank you for what you have provided so far and thank you for any future help....

Andreas Laszlo(my name) Barczay Barcza (Hungarian family name) (( I actually have the family silver with crest)) if anyone happens to have any info on that family name id be glad to know. what I have is from my great grandmother who married a Hunyadi, but both spoke little of their lives before the fall of Austro-hungary...

[Russ Mitchell]

Continued research on my party has basically determined that when Villani describes the Hungarian troops as carrying "long swords," he means it -- all the artwork shows blades that are basically type XVIIs, and that at least thirty years before the normally-accepted dates. Even wider Hungarian longswords that I've examined in museums (lucky me, I used to get to do this) that you'd guess to be cutting swords because of spatulate points, were all EXTREMELY stiff weapons. So if you were doing this for SCA purposes, I'd see if you can use a thrusting tip, and a longer blade where you can work popping faceplates into your fighting style. (longsword in one hand with shield is depicted quite a bit -- this may not be doable in SCA due to the overweight-weapon factor in your safety rules, ymmv).

[Will Phillips]

Can anyone speak a bit to the clan-based heraldry in use in Poland and Hungary (and possibly other Slavic countries)?

How early did it show up and stick to families rather than individuals?

I'd be interested in a broadly 1250-1325 timeswath for either country, but at the same time want to be able to display my own device/arms on things rather than the clan/family I'd be portraying. If displaying or assuming individual, personal heraldry isn't historically correct by that point (it certainly seems well established by both once you hit the 1400s, at least in Poland), then my interest wanes quite a bit...

[Mark Griffin]

great thread and don't want to hijack it but...

I am SCA-friendly but not a Society member

Is that like 'I've smoked dope but didn't inhale'?

[Russ Mitchell]

No, it means I don't have your kit or play your game, but I WILL help you make one on this topic.

[Russ Mitchell]

Will,

Sorry I missed your previous reply. The short answer is that a Polish clan and a Hungarian noble kindred aren't the same thing.

If you can find a copy of this, get it.

https://scholarworks.iu.edu/dspace/bits ... sequence=1

[Jan]

Can anyone speak a bit to the clan-based heraldry in use in Poland and Hungary (and possibly other Slavic countries)?

How early did it show up and stick to families rather than individuals?

I'd be interested in a broadly 1250-1325 timeswath for either country, but at the same time want to be able to display my own device/arms on things rather than the clan/family I'd be portraying. If displaying or assuming individual, personal heraldry isn't historically correct by that point (it certainly seems well established by both once you hit the 1400s, at least in Poland), then my interest wanes quite a bit...

From what I've seen and researched, it's always been that way in Poland but remember that the mindset of the szlachta was always very different from the gentry and nobility of the rest of Europe. Sorry, but that seems to be the way it is.

My own portrayal has evolved over my years in the SCA, and when I got my arms passes all those years ago I never thought about the implications. Now, years later, I have both the arms that people have known me by forever, as well as a more accurate herb that people are just getting used to. If pressed I can explain it thusly - the arms are "foreign" and received for some great deed or other while traveling outside of Poland.
Practically, I wear my surcoat with my arms for tournaments, because that's what everyone knows. For wars and melees I don't wear that, and have the herb painted on my coat-of-plates (or armored surcoat) and on the pavise I use.