Roman Officer, 1st C AD

[revcarver]

I want to Be a 1st Century Roman Officer cora 64 A.D.

I hope I am posting in the correct place.

I would like to be 1st Century Roman Officer cora 64 A.D. in Ephesus. I have not yet determined the Class of Officer whether a Tribune, Legate or General. I realize that there is not a whole lot of information on the subject as there have been no archeological finds and much would depend on Art, Sculpture, Tombstones and Writings. I already have two Brass Muscle Cuirass' that I will be working on.One is already fitted and I am losing weight... LOL the other one I will be doing repousse work on to make it to m liking and trying to stay historically accurate. I also have a helmet made by DSC that I will re-work with repousse and possible appliqués. I have materials for my Subarmalis and have decided on 2-3oz leather. I realize there is a dispute on whether or not they were made of Linen... Wool or leather. As for the Sword... I will be making my own Parazonium Sword and Parazonium Dagger. I am a professional/Master Woodcarver and am specializing in 1st Century Roman Sword Hilts as seen in the classifieds here. I am looking for materials that will help me make this vision/dream come true. Patterns, Pictures, drawings, measurements, writings, etc. Please make your input helpful and not critical. Thank you! --Patrick

[wolf16mt]

Try looking at roman army talk. There was several people there i know could show you alot of referance material and i think a couple who have already made their own kit.

[revcarver]

Thank You... I am already a member there.

[Dan Howard]

A lot of extant Greek and Italian cuirasses had small holes around the edges for attaching a padded liner. It is likely that Roman mail had integrated padding as well. You don't need anything underneath except for a regular tunic. The subarmalis was really only needed for segmentata.

[revcarver]

If that is so... then what about the Ptregaes (Flaps on apron and shoulders) how do you account for them?

[revcarver]

If that is so... then what about the Ptregaes (Flaps on apron and shoulders) how do you account for them?

[wolf16mt]

If that is so... then what about the Ptregaes (Flaps on apron and shoulders) how do you account for them?

I am more of a greek reenactor on the RAT group. So please give me a day or two to do research and I will post my findings here.

Thanks!

[Matthew Amt]

If that is so... then what about the Ptregaes (Flaps on apron and shoulders) how do you account for them?

Ouch--*pteruges*. Your mother and I taught you better than that, my son!

Dan, aren't lining holes mostly Archaic? I don't remember seeing them on muscled cuirasses. Sure, I agree that any plate armor would have a lining, but I tend to assume they're glued in by the first century AD. The pteruges could still be part of that, but *I* would have a harder time trusting the glue, at that point.

It seems more likely they were part of a subarmalis, even if it weren't padded (or only at the shoulders, for instance). In fact there is a garment of this sort depicted on a sculpture, draped over a log. It's a cuirass-shaped body in soft fabric or thin leather with pteruges at waist and shoulders, as I recall. Of course, if that has turned out to be some Victorian restoration to the sculpture...

Matthew

[wolf16mt]

So far i am finding little on the 1st cent hilt. I will keep looking on my resources and see if there is anything i can find on it. Sorry this is taking so long. I am working during the week but i might find something this weekend.

[revcarver]

So sorry "Father Matt A." LOL I have seen it spelled so many different ways... I was not sure which one was the correct one. *pteruges* from now on!

[Dan Howard]

Dan, aren't lining holes mostly Archaic? I don't remember seeing them on muscled cuirasses.

Yes I was thinking of Archaic armour. I didn't think we had enough extant examples of Roman muscled cuirasses to determine how the liner was attached in that period.

[Matthew Amt]

Dan, aren't lining holes mostly Archaic? I don't remember seeing them on muscled cuirasses.

Yes I was thinking of Archaic armour. I didn't think we had enough extant examples of Roman muscled cuirasses to determine how the liner was attached in that period.

Well, surviving muscled cuirasses from the first century, zippo! But there are plenty of reliefs, and as I recall none of them show much evidence of stitching along the edges. Plus there are greaves, and none of them have holes. And obviously plenty of helmets, same thing.

Even cuirasses from Italy that are 3rd to 4th century BC don't have edging holes. Best guess is that it just wasn't done that way in the 1st century.

Oh, just to muddy the waters, Patrick, I believe the "u" in pteruges is actually upsilon, so "pteryges" is correct--it just isn't as likely to be pronounced as closely to the original Greek! And remember, that "g" is hard. ter-OO-gays, more or less.

Matthew

[revcarver]

Thank you for the correct spelling!

[wolf16mt]

Ok, i have found no good visual resources on thehilt at all. I am going to see if the local art instute has anything i can use as referance material. I know they have several historical artifacts in the lower portion of the instute for the greeks. Maybe something roman. I hope. But im still looking man.

[Thomas MacFinn]

As for the Sword... I will be making my own Parazonium Sword and Parazonium Dagger. I am a professional/Master Woodcarver and am specializing in 1st Century Roman Sword Hilts as seen in the classifieds here.

Before I give you a lot of advice you don't need, what activities are you planning on participating in? Heavy combat?

[revcarver]

Wolf16mt... Thank you for your desire to help me... it is GREATLY appreciated.

Thomas M. Most all of what I am going to be using it for is "Presentation" applications. With historical applications and to be used as learning and teaching settings. The only combat that I would be involved in would be "Simulated" slow motion. Also... in the equipment that I am acquiring and the equipment that I am personally making will also be for "Hands On" use, where those who have never had the opportunity to be exposed to equipment like this will be able to try it on, hold it, touch it and understand it's use.

I am not a part of a reenactment group. "Yet" because there aren't any in my area. But as I have been accumulating equipment, making equipment and retooling my shop to do more work, there are a number of other men whom I have sparked an interest in Roman Armor and possibly reenacting. The equipment will also be used in theatrical productions. Not as props, but as historically accurate as possible equipment in every way.

As for the sword hilts... I am making them for other people as well as myself... and trying to stay as historically accurate as possible (Or what the client desires) in materials, sizes, designs, etc.

I hope this helps to answer your question.

[wolf16mt]

Not a problem. Truth is if we can all work as a team. We can do anything. I have found a possible helmet lookalike. Its on the dark knight armoury website for sale. Its listed as a roman calvery officers helm. I dont belive its entirely accurate. But i have not seen it in person or any good pics other than whats on the site. Also i checked localy and found no actual items to get good pics or descriptions of. So at this moment i am tempted to ask on the RAT site and see what some of the historians have hidden in there pockets on this one. And the musculata would definately be accurate for an officer.

[Konstantin the Red]

Heh. Tempting, tempting...

roman calvery

...to imagine the Classical world's weirdest first-century Roman --- with three crosses on top.

[wolf16mt]

roman calvery

...to imagine the Classical world's weirdest first-century Roman --- with three crosses on top.[/quote]

True. nothing in this world of ours is perfect compaired to the original. But then if everything were perfect there would be no drive to progress in life.

[revcarver]

I have never seen a helmet like that... I did purchase one from DSC though... I will do my own Repousse` work on it.

[wolf16mt]

They have one similar to it at the art institute here in town. Its on the lower levels of the building. But they have a no picture policy on alot of the inside of the building. If its alowable ill grab a pic for you and post it. But im still looking about for good referance pics. We will get there. One way or the other.

[Matthew Amt]

roman calvery

...to imagine the Classical world's weirdest first-century Roman --- with three crosses on top.

Uh, pretty sure Konstantin was making a visual pun on the mis-spelling of "cavalry" as "calvery", which reminded him of the hill of "Calvary"--with three crosses on top. Pretty sure you won't find any Roman helmets resembling that description from the first century, sorry!

Just to keep us from wandering off after red herrings.

Matthew

[revcarver]

LOL... I am dyslexic... I get it now!

[wolf16mt]

roman calvery

...to imagine the Classical world's weirdest first-century Roman --- with three crosses on top.

Uh, pretty sure Konstantin was making a visual pun on the mis-spelling of "cavalry" as "calvery", which reminded him of the hill of "Calvary"--with three crosses on top. Pretty sure you won't find any Roman helmets resembling that description from the first century, sorry!

Just to keep us from wandering off after red herrings.

Matthew

Then that makes me wonder about what it is there. Ill have to get back in there soon. But working from 10 to 12 hours a day the kids sports and lots of yard work its going to be a while. And yes i see i made an error in spelling. I will also try to get more sleep so as not to make simple mistakes.

[Matthew Amt]

Nah, don't sweat it! It was just amusing seeing speculation get piled onto a joke.

Patrick probably already knows this from other boards or sources, but there just aren't more than 2 or 3 surviving helmets which *might* have belonged to c. 1st century AD tribunes or legates. You aren't going to find one in any local museum in the US, that's for sure! Any reconstructions are based largely on artwork, often heavily influenced by Hollywood or Victorian restorations. Dark Knight Armory is simply a vendor for Indian-made products, and worse than most in differentiating between those with better historical accuracy and those that are utter fantasy.

There *are* plenty of earlier Attic and other types of helmets around, 3rd to 4th century BC, typically grave finds (excavated or more likely looted). Those are the basis for early Imperial officer helmets, but not really helpful for decorative motifs and other details. So we're basically stuck with studying artwork, and trying to decide what is accurate and what is stylized or artistic license...

Sorry about that! It's what makes this sort of impression very challenging.

Matthew

[wolf16mt]

True that there are only a few. I have long assumed most things in the US musems are recreations and very few real deal items. And yes. Most material made in india seem to be of less that perfect quality. And a definate on the movies affecting reality. I was speaking to a guy at a truck stop about the new 300 movie. And he was under the impression that it was all historical but not the music. So i had a good laugh and remembered how history changes with popular belief.

[wolf16mt]

Ok. I belive i have come up to a total nadda. Im fishing for ideas where to look next?

[Mlanteigne]

I know a guy who has a damned fine Legatus impression. But he would be sorely disappointed if you went with leather pteryges (long ones). I'll post a link to Tracis Clark's site on the Google Cached pages. Decide then.

[revcarver]

Mianteigne... Can you send me the link in a private message please?

[Mlanteigne]

Yeah...I'll send it when I get home. If I forget send me a reminder at the other place

[Maximus Atreus Of Rome]

Here's my sca kit, just please keep in mind that this is my Pennsic kit, before going into our meatgrinder of a bridge battle, so my anachronistic liberties were in full force here! like my camelbak or my plastic hockey "greaves" instead of my brass pair.

If you can ignore everything from mid-thigh down (and my home-made wisby gauntlet) then my low level officer (decent enough for a Tribune perhaps?) may make a good example of what one can do for a practical Roman officer kit.

Oh and my ugly left arm padding is usually well hidden behind my shield. Also, I highly recommend a horizontal shield grip! Especially for an early empire kit.

[Kain556]

so in with this conversation does anyone have a vid or simple and easy to understand pattern and instructions for making pteruges if I am able to set aside funds I will be getting a roll of leather from the leather guy some time this month, I will be trying to get 8-9 oz black or burgundy (if i can find some)
I made some for my first kit but got 14 oz and yeh well that did not work out. also the way I did it was cut out long and short individually and then rivot them overlapping it was a pain in the neck any pointers?

[Matthew Amt]

so in with this conversation does anyone have a vid or simple and easy to understand pattern and instructions for making pteruges if I am able to set aside funds I will be getting a roll of leather from the leather guy some time this month, I will be trying to get 8-9 oz black or burgundy (if i can find some)
I made some for my first kit but got 14 oz and yeh well that did not work out. also the way I did it was cut out long and short individually and then rivot them overlapping it was a pain in the neck any pointers?

Eek, yeah, don't do them individually! Maybe my Greek leather armor will help?



Just ignore the top half of the photo, since it's not really relevant to this. Basically just cut 2 rectangles, the inner one an inch taller than the outer one. Cut the slits about 2 inches apart, almost to the top edge, making a big fringe. Then just put them together with the slits staggered. That means the inner row will stick out beyond the outer row at one side, making a neat overlap where your opening will be.

If your leather isn't large enough to cut both rectangles in a complete piece each, you can easily cut two or more pieces as needed. My inner row of flaps actually needed a 2-flap piece tacked on the end--you can see it at the left end, but once the thing is assembled the joints are invisible, of course. (That's assuming the top of your pteruges will be covered by your armor!)

One important point is to try to match your circumference. You don't want a gap, but you also don't want excess length that will end up being overlapped or bunched (since heavy leather doesn't really "bunch" very well!). If you expect to expand over time, it's not impossible to add flaps--might be handy to make a few spares right now!

Good luck!

Matthew

[Kain556]

Achilles of Sparta is the one who gave me pointers on my first set his are kinda awesome this pic does not do it justice at all





I think the mentality is that if they rip off it would not be hard to pull a few rivots and replace a section and that the way they lay ontop of one another there should be no massive gaps in coverage, for him he uses zoombang and this as his only thigh coverage.

[Ursus Epicurius]

Above is how I did mine for my roman kit, though mine are knee length.