I wanna be a VIKING

Diglach Mac Cein · Post by **Diglach Mac Cein** » Wed Aug 04, 2010 12:21 pm

The Norse were actively trading in Ireland as early as 700 AD. the Norse settlement in Limerick, Dublin and Waterford were in place by 1000.

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Doorman · Post by **Doorman** » Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:38 pm

I am looking at developing an early 1000's danelaw viking. I plan on being low level nobility who owns some farmland but acquires most of my wealth from raiding. I would appreciate any links to any other threads or resources to help me develop my hard and soft kit.

Mord · Post by **Mord** » Mon Aug 23, 2010 4:17 pm

NB this is In reference to viewtopic.php?f=4&t=136136

Sieghart wrote:Owyn, that is an excellent theory! I admit I am a bit literal at times when researching, so that thought never even crossed my mind. Good to know your individual testing supported it. I think I'm gonna hit the books again, and see if i can find any more mentions of these.

I do love me some research!

~Sigurd

You won't find anything, except possbly the work of Cameron, who will disappoint you. Ms. Cameron, an archaeologist, pretty much states that the use of leather in arms and armour was limited to sword scabbards and shield covers. She also pretty much deconstructs Bruce-Mitford's idea of a Romanish Leather Curiass from Sutton Hoo.

Check the book "Leather and Fur: Aspects of Early Medieval Trade and Technology"; ISBN: 1873132514. This work not only discusses the use of leather, but also the production of the material and its trade.

As for Owyn's "experiment," I'm sorry to say that we've been through all this before. His experiment wasn't an experiment; he did not document or publish his tools, methods, or results. If this had been done, then the experiment could have been reproduced and the results examined.

Until Owyn writes it up and publishes it (a far easier thing to do these days), I believe that he is simply trying to fit a few "facts" into a theory wanted, as opposed to trying to find all the facts and letting them speak for themselves. He is using inductive reasoning, not deductive reasoning.

Now then, to go over this once again:

The vast majority of leather found archaeologically dating to the early middle ages are shoes and scraps. I have heard that leather was used as a sort of "washer" for shields, and that sometimes sheep skin was stuffed into a shield boss to act padding.

In truth as I understand it, what we know about leather in the early middle ages is only beginning. I have not really seen any literature on the produciton of leather in Scandinavia in the early middle ages (Cameron's work discusses Anglo-Saxon England); understand production would mean we would have some understanding of what skins were tanned and how often, etc.

Mord.

Greenshield · Post by **Greenshield** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:24 am

Here is an interesting site that might come in handy for those interested in Viking culture:

http://arkikon.no/index.html

GreenShield

Andrew Sterner · Post by **Andrew Sterner** » Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:58 pm

What about spurs? Obviously I wouldn't be wearing any until I felt I had reached a point where I deserved to wear them(uncle was a 1SG in the cavalry), but isn't there proof(archaelogical I know of, I think there's some pictorial evidence too) of the vikings having/using spurs?

Haldan · Post by **Haldan** » Fri Mar 25, 2011 4:59 am

Short answer, Yes.

http://www.vikingsword.com/laking/lak001c.html

http://www.hurstwic.org/history/article ... travel.htm

Haldan

hivemind · Post by **hivemind** » Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:48 pm

So, I'm thinking of putting together a Viking Hersir kit, someone born in Hedeby around AD972, fought at Maldon in 991, and took part in all the glorious extortion of the Danegeld times. End goal is to fight SCA heavy with it.

I'm pretty well set on going with all hidden armor (Zoombang pads and some hardened leather I'll do myself) under linen and wool tunics, but I have a couple questions:

1. Helmet. I can do a simple nasal spangenhelm, right? How the hell does that work for SCA heavy?

2. I'm reading Viking Clothing by Thor Ewing right now, and from that, it sounds a lot like I need to be wearing some kinda knee pants with turnshoes and winnigas, rather than hosen. Am I reading the wrong stuff? This not a reliable source? This goes against everything I usually read about Vikings from this time. I don't really want to become a freaking Viking scholar, but I'm not above reading a *couple* books - and I'd like to be able to support what I'm wearing.

3. Gores in tunics, or no gores? What's more correct, considering the background I've stated above? Hedeby is practically Continental, and fairly cosmopolitan as far as Scandinavian cities go, so some Continental fashions should be OK - right? Stuff I'm reading seems to support no gores for the more northern Vikings.

4. Hands. I don't want to use baskets, so that means finger gauntlets, no? If I cover some Wisby finger gaunts with brown leather, is that close enough?

5. Colors. What's appropriate for the tunics? What is definitely NOT appropriate?

That's enough for now, I think. Thanks in advance.

Haldan · Post by **Haldan** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:51 am

Welcome to Viking 101, hivemind! :D

Some answers to your questions from my own experience:

1. Nasal Helm - The Germundbu helm is the only actual 'Norse' helm that we have any physical object on. It's the one with oculars or 'goggles'. There is a lot of pictorial and other art evidence for the nasal helm though. Knotwolf and Windrose do really good 'takes' on the early period helms. My own is a WMA nasal but he's going out of business
http://www.knotwolf.com

http://www.windrosearmoury.com/zc/index ... gcog8sjka1

2. Mr. Ewing seems to be not very clear on this one. Close fitting hose (Thorsberg type Pants) or loosefitting pants (linengarb.com type regular pants) would be what I would wear if I were portraying someone from Mainland Sweden or West from there. Rus Type pants if from Sweden/Gotland/Karelia/Russia. All types of pants with Winnigas and turnshoes.

3. As a general rule: Go with gores. One on each side is fairly common. The Bayeux tapestry seems to indicate that there might be some style to have four gores with different colors than the main tunic but then again, they BT has blue horses...

4. As far as hand protection goes, thats a compromise that we all make for SCA Heavy. Myself, I went with Darkwood Armoury's Stealth Finger Gaunts. Can't reccomend the Vendor but the product is great.

5. Colors. This should help: http://www.regia.org/members/membdocs.html#Handbook

Hope this helps.

Haldan

hivemind · Post by **hivemind** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:57 am

1. Thor's balls, I dunno how the hell I'm gonna slip an $800 helmet past the wife...

2. So, linen pants, herringbone wool winningas, turnshoes. Easy-peasy.

3. I'm gonna just go with Bocksten tunics then, since it's a pattern I'm familiar with. Using the questionable colorings of the BT, I'm going to do colored gores all around. :) Fuck it, Vikings like their bling.

4. I guess I'll find someone that makes Wisby finger gaunts. If I can't get them blackened, I'll cover them with leather myself. Maybe I just start with some hardened leather clamshells, since I can make those myself, and the godsdamned helmet is going to be two car payments...

5. Good resource on the colors, thanks. I think I'll go with mostly a royal blue, and accent with a gold-yellow. Put the same on my shield, too.

Speaking of shields, gotta be round, right? What's a typical diameter? 24", 30", 36"? These are center-boss punch shields with a backstrap, yes?

Peikko · Post by **Peikko** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 4:11 am

[quote="hivemind"]1. Thor's balls, I dunno how the hell I'm gonna slip an $800 helmet past the wife...[/quote]

How's $115 sound?

http://www.zweihammer.com/gallery/album ... age001.jpg

...not strictly "viking" as it predates the era a bit and requires some assembly.

http://www.zweihammer.com/catalog/page, ... urer_id,0/

less work you say...someone local you say:
http://ironmongerarmory.com/stock-helms/norman-helms

Eric does simple but rugged helms for the East's warriors...I own several of his helms and I love them.

hivemind · Post by **hivemind** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 8:18 am

Thanks Peikko, that kit helm is 100% win. Ordering tonight!

Haldan · Post by **Haldan** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:31 am

[quote="hivemind"]Speaking of shields, gotta be round, right? What's a typical diameter? 24", 30", 36"? These are center-boss punch shields with a backstrap, yes?[/quote]

Sorry. Missed this one.

Shields: It depends.

We are all familiar with the round shield. I find that a 30" round does me well. Not too big to maneuver and not too small.

Additionally, if we are to believe the Oseberg tapestry, there were oval shields as well. These have been questioned as artisitic interpretation but when looking at the tapestry there are round shapes galore so my opinion is that they did exist as some place at some time in Scandinavia.

Finally, at the end of the Viking age, most of the militaries (IMO) were using the kite shield alongside the round.

Hope this helps!

Haldan

BjarkiLeach · Post by **BjarkiLeach** » Wed Aug 17, 2011 1:26 am

Re The Zwihammer helm.

I come from a reenactment view, and I use the Valsguard helm for my 650ish impression of a Jutish warrior from southern Hampshire.

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/G ... directlink

here is Me in my kit, the helm is great, Not, I think SCA leagal, as I've not put the rigid avontale or cheek plates on and put a chain avontale on.

Its very heavy, but takes a huge amount of impact, the liner is sheepskin in a red wool cap.

This is much earlyer than viking period, but, I think is a good looking helm.

all the best

Bjarki

hivemind · Post by **hivemind** » Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:32 am

I did go with the Zweihammer helm. I'm going to mirror polish it and say it's a family heirloom.

Thomas MacFinn · Post by **Thomas MacFinn** » Sun Nov 13, 2011 11:29 pm

Robert of Canterbury wrote:I just tripped over a huge online resource, the Viking Society for Northern Research's online publications archive.

http://www.vsnrweb-publications.org.uk/

Go nuts!

wAUrrior · Post by **wAUrrior** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:46 am

I am converting from 12th-13th Welsh crusader to late 800 early 900 A.D Dane transplanted via his ancestors participation in conquest/raiding.
I have accrued my garb and display items. (i.e-repro sword, spear, helm, round shield, byrnie, hand ax,long ax, seax et al.) Now I am attempting to mirror my SCA heavy list gear to these items, a guideline for myself as you will. I understand due to safety rules I won't be able to adhere closely to the minimalist stylings of the Norse fighting gear. I can cover my arm and shoulder armor with a tunic with little trouble. It's my legs I have a problem with.
To be honest I am a competitive fighter, but very far from top tier. I also freely admit that my left leg is vulnerable to my, at times shall we say, vigourous shield movement. I am working that issue. Until this self correcting behavior is, well, self corrected I would like to know a close to historic, low profile leg armor substitute for my Viking Leatherworks full leg with stainless cop. Which I might add is excellent and has served me well.
I have received many great ideas (attaching low pro knee cops to doubled up trousers and hidden) from this forum. I am now looking for anything which my fellow Nord landers may have tried and suceeded with. I have thought of using moving blanket legs with a cop, but need to work it out with someone more armor crafty than myself.

hivemind · Post by **hivemind** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:48 am

I'm doing Zoombang shorts and stainless steel knee cops laced to some modern kneepads. Going to cover it with moderately loose linen pants, and winingas below the knee.

wAUrrior · Post by **wAUrrior** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:27 am

What is zoom-bang and where does one get it?

wAUrrior · Post by **wAUrrior** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:33 am

Okay looked it up. Looks workable. Thanks!

hivemind · Post by **hivemind** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:34 am

Run a search here for lots of info, but basically, they're like underarmor shorts (and shirts too) that have panels off this gel stuff that instantly stiffens when struck. It's been tested and approved by the SEM to exceed minimum requirements for armor, being significantly more protective than 11oz leather with blue foam padding.

http://www.zoombang.com/

Click on "SHOP" and go to the "Medieval Armored Combat" section.

wAUrrior · Post by **wAUrrior** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:54 am

Looked at the shorts, actually cheaper than the full legs I purchased a few years ago. Definitely will be linvesting in some. After I sell the legs!

Brynjolfr Hrafnsson · Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:22 am

Zoombang has brought my in-armor impression up 100%. When I wear and fight in a blue tunic, I look like I am wearing a blue linen tunic, and am not, in fact a hunch back. I was having a hard time getting my low profile armor to be low profile before.

I just need to get mail--the second to the last piece of armor for my 9th Century Norse persona.

wAUrrior · Post by **wAUrrior** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:27 am

The zoom-bang option seems to really be the way to go. With a good byrnie hanging over, the effect should be just what most Viking period persona aim for.
So what I am looking at is some knees from Mandrake and zoom-bang shorts. I'll keep my bazus for now as they are fairly new and give me protection on my forearms which I have been hit on. Maybe the bazus will be done when my skill level increases enough to ditch the bazus for just elbows!
I will one day fight in as little armor as safety and convention allow!

hivemind · Post by **hivemind** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:29 am

I don't think I'd ever un-armor my forearms. If nothing else, I'll strap a soccer shinpad on my forearm under my undertunic.

wAUrrior · Post by **wAUrrior** » Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:45 am

I maybe mis-spoke. I wouldn't go totally unprotected on the forearms. A radius/ulna break would be very easy to obtain, even by sheer happenstance. Although I do know fighters wearing just elbows attached to a gambeson. I would at least have some padding. The minimalist project for me is WAY down the road. Right now I need much work on my consistency in shot selection and counter shots to even dream about armoring down! But I will dream! I looked at the "Critique my Kit" thread and saw a great example of darkages/viking SCA armor. It's a goal setting image.

wAUrrior · Post by **wAUrrior** » Sat Nov 26, 2011 1:04 am

Not sure if this belongs here....but besides the not so eloquent title it has some interesting stuff in it....like filed teet!

http://fuckyeahnorsemen.tumblr.com/

Thorfinnr · Post by **Thorfinnr** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 5:54 pm

wAUrrior wrote:The zoom-bang option seems to really be the way to go. With a good byrnie hanging over, the effect should be just what most Viking period persona aim for.

Sorry this is a bit off-topic, but it does concern armor functionality for a good Norse Persona.

A couple questions for you zoombang guys..

I am updating armor, and just got myself a cooly new mail shirt. I am taking from your post above you would wear the zoombang shirt, maybe a thick tunic, and the mail on top? Is this a correct interpretation of your post?

I'm looking to get some impact resistance in place under the mail, and this looks pretty cool, and somewhat affordable.

I'm thinking both shorts and shirts, and I wear pants over my leg armor now, and I use modified catchers knees for knee/lower-leg armor, as fighting with a center-round I have a tendency to knock leg shots down where they hit me on the shin.

This could be a great resource, I'd like to hear from you guys on how it performed if you've gotten the gear and actually used it in combat, and any tips suggestions.

Also, do their sizes run big or small? Don't want to order an XXL if an XL will do.

Thanks in advance for info!

Thorfinnr

hivemind · Post by **hivemind** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 2:29 am

The shirt is great. Here's the thing about the fitting: the pads don't stretch, and the compression fabric under the pads can't stretch either because it's fused to the pads. If your belly's bigger than your chest, go with that measurement when buying them and you'll be fine.

The shorts are almost getting a pass from me now. There's no hip/ass protection, and there's about a 1.5" gap on the front of the thighs too. I've got big-ass bruises on both hips right now, and I'm done trying to just tough it out. I'll be making me some hardened leather and foam cuisses to cover my hips and front of thigh.

If I had to do it again, I think I'd pass on the shorts and do something else for hidden legs. Maybe if you're a better fighter than me you can make the shorts work, but right now, the "max coverage" of the shorts leaves a bit to be desired. Where the pads are they work great, but there's just not enough of them.

Shirt's great though. A+, would buy again, etc.

Thorfinnr · Post by **Thorfinnr** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:51 am

hivemind wrote:The shirt is great. Here's the thing about the fitting: the pads don't stretch, and the compression fabric under the pads can't stretch either because it's fused to the pads. If your belly's bigger than your chest, go with that measurement when buying them and you'll be fine.

The shorts are almost getting a pass from me now. There's no hip/ass protection, and there's about a 1.5" gap on the front of the thighs too. I've got big-ass bruises on both hips right now, and I'm done trying to just tough it out. I'll be making me some hardened leather and foam cuisses to cover my hips and front of thigh.

If I had to do it again, I think I'd pass on the shorts and do something else for hidden legs. Maybe if you're a better fighter than me you can make the shorts work, but right now, the "max coverage" of the shorts leaves a bit to be desired. Where the pads are they work great, but there's just not enough of them.

Shirt's great though. A+, would buy again, etc.

Thanks for the feed back and performance info.

Right now i use Fogdog Hockey shorts as my uppers. Still get some serious bruises, but that really motivates me not to table my shield.

I usually get shots right at mid thigh, as I fight a very low centered stance. I take very few true hip shots. But I think that's due to my stance and style of fighting...not ability my friend.

Looking at the pics of the shorts, they may work cause it looks like the gel is positioned right where i get hit the most.

Thanks again, if anyone else has experience using these, woudl love to hear more. Thinking of investing come tax time.

hivemind · Post by **hivemind** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:59 am

They cover the shit outta my thighs - but I don't seem to get hit there.

marcus the pale · Post by **marcus the pale** » Sun Jan 01, 2012 2:24 pm

In the past couple weeks I took more than one solid shot to the leg, while wearing just the zoombang shorts and my linen pants. I think it's the worst bruise I've ever had... Body shots with mail and zoombang are fine, I can feel the hits, but no real bruises to speak of. I'm working on adding some low profile leg protection for this week, which puts me almost back to where I was before, hexpad shorts and plastic...

On the plus side, fighting in my viking-ish gear is a blast. Learning the center-grip is a challenge, but not enough to take away from the fun. I should have switched to early period years ago.

Marcus

hivemind · Post by **hivemind** » Sun Jan 01, 2012 2:55 pm

Yeah my left upper thigh/hip is a mess right now, the wife cringes every time I take off my pants - and not for a good reason either. I have a HUGE bruise there, actually I suppose it's a contusion, it's all hard and knotty.

Making some cuisses tonight or tomorrow. Will wear under pants.

Prospero13 · Post by **Prospero13** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:37 am

Good plan. You should never fight without underpants.

P

Thorfinnr · Post by **Thorfinnr** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:32 pm

marcus the pale wrote:In the past couple weeks I took more than one solid shot to the leg, while wearing just the zoombang shorts and my linen pants. I think it's the worst bruise I've ever had... Body shots with mail and zoombang are fine, I can feel the hits, but no real bruises to speak of. I'm working on adding some low profile leg protection for this week, which puts me almost back to where I was before, hexpad shorts and plastic...

Good to know, I am definitely thinking of the shirt with a light tunic over it and mail Hauberk on top...but the shorts seems to be having an issue, so I may pass on those as well...

I'm only 5'10, and i fight a low centered stance with my center-grip round, which is why I commented before I get more mid-thigh shots than upper leg/hip shots, but still sounds like the shorts are not enough on their own under pants.

Has anyone provided this info to zoombang to see if they can re-design/improve the shorts? The idea is awesome, but still sounds like it needs some design work.

Sergeant Marli · Post by **Sergeant Marli** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:32 pm

Just to be clear, these:

Do not offer good hip/ass protection? If so I'm glad to hear this as it was on my list to buy...

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