I wanna be a VIKING

JJ Shred · Post by **JJ Shred** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 7:58 pm

A linen 'T' tunic would be simple to make and far more appropriate. A wool overtunic as padding (or you could pad the wool tunic if necessary) would cost a lot less as well.

Point any hidden armour through the woolen overtunic, assuming that you will wear a mail haulberk over everything.

Woolen baggy trousers over any armour with shin wraps would look good as well. The gauntlets are a problem, one that Regia has too. The new Revival padded ones would look 100% better than modern hockey gloves IMHO.

Cap'n Atli · Post by **Cap'n Atli** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 6:42 pm

Bound is the Boatless Man

So, to give you at least some background upon the ships, at least until you can take your place on the rowing bench with one of the several (!) Longship Companies, I present some preliminary sources; with comments. (This will go through several posts as I pry information out from my library and other sources.)

First, on line, there are two sections of the Longship Company website that will repay careful study:

First, if you have a pdf viewer, work your way through the Longship Company Manual. ItÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s very much written from a 20th century viewpoint, but it will give you a feel for the nuts and bolts of operations on an oared sailing vessel. It can be found at: http://chester.xerox.com/~moore/ShipsManual.pdf

Second, check out 25 Years Abaft the Mast at: http://www.wam.umd.edu/~eowyn/longship/ ... iking.html
This article goes into a number of details that make up the mental furniture of scholars and reenactors, much of which is just plain wrong or dubious at best.

Fo books to get started with (and because theyÃ¢â‚¬â„¢re within reach) I would suggest two to warm up with:

The Viking Ships (Their Ancestry and Evolution) by A.W. Brogger and Haakon Shetelig; ( (c) 1951, 1971; ISBN 82 09 00030 6) This is the book on the Oseberg and Gokstad ships, for its time. Skip the arguments about the ancestry of skin boats and their relevance to longships, but as a detailed general description of these two ships and a general history of the vessels, itÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s a useful resource.

Five Viking Ships from Roskilde Fjord by Olaf Olsen and Ole Crulin-Pedersen ( (c) 1978, 1985; ISBN 87-480-0181-3) For years the Gokstad and the Oseberg ships were it! The rest were bits and pieces of shadowy ghost ships made of timber and nail stains in the sand; the Bayeux needlework, and saga evidence mixed with informed and uninformed speculation. Then in a few wonderful years in the Ã¢â‚¬Ëœ60s and early Ã¢â‚¬Ëœ70s, a large warship, a small warship, a large merchantman, a small merchantman, and a small something-or-other (ferry? fishing boat?) were excavated from the bottom of Roskilde Fjord where they had been sunk a thousand years earlier to blockade the harbor. A little simplified, a little dated, but still an excellent place to start to understand Viking age vessels in a more total context.

Okay; more later!

(Edited for ypographical terrors and to add a neat picture. :wink:

)

Mord · Post by **Mord** » Tue May 17, 2005 1:46 pm

wbf wrote:Can everything in this thread be used for a Rus as well ??

No. For instance, the "Vikings in Britain" is not about the Rus. However, I'm currently reading a new book call "Rus Vikings" published by Brill. Your best bet, is to read the section on the Rus in G. Jones "A History of the Vikings." You may also want to read, "Valdimir: A Russian Viking."

Mord.

Dave Womble · Post by **Dave Womble** » Tue May 24, 2005 11:10 am

However, as far as the equipment, yes, generally it'd be the same. There may have been regional construction and decoration differences but the basic items would still have been the same.

I'll even go out on a limb here and say that a far eastern Rus could/would have had access to scale or lamellar, but as far as I know, there is no conclusive evidence (artistic, archeological, or literary) or instances of it.

Dave

Mord · Post by **Mord** » Tue May 24, 2005 2:06 pm

Ah......I don't know, Dave. The whole Rus question is mixed up in the "Normanist Controversy" monster. The controversy is between the Normanist ("ethnic" Germans-- mostly Swedes) and Anti-Normanists ("ethnic" Slavs--mostly Russians); the monster comes down to the role of Scandinavians within Eastern Europe and the truthfulness of the "Russian Primary Chronicle" and the interpretation of archaeological finds from Staraya Lagoda, Novgorod, Kiev, and other Eastern places.

Lots of ink has been spilled on this thing going all the way back to the 17th century (arg); only since the fall of the Soviet Union, (who perpetuated the Anti-Normanist postion to the point of not releasing any of the archaeological dig reports) has any real work been done to try and resolve the situation. Some recent publications:

Duczko, W. "Viking Rus. Studies on the Presence of Scandinavians in Eastern Europe." Boston, Massachusetts: Brill (2004). ISBN:9004138749. The most recent book on the subject. Lots here to see.

Sherman, H. "Normanist Controversy" in "The Encyclopedia of Russian History." J. R. Millar (ed.), Vol. 3, (2004): 1060-1062. ISBN: 0028659074. An excellent, if all too brief, description of the controversy.

Also look for works by Kirpicnikov (the name is often spelled "Kirpichnikov") and Thomas Noonian.

The practicle upshot of all this is that what was going on in the West, while similiar as far as the Scandinavians are concerned, isn't exactly the same as what was going on in the East. What the differences are, unfortunately, literally hasn't been published in English.

Mord.

Buran · Post by **Buran** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:21 am

A few actual artifacts survive from the Viking period. In the Gjermundbu find, a mail shirt and a helmet were found. The Gjermundbu helmet was not actually a "spangenhelm" per se. Since a central bar ran from forehead to the back of the head, it would be classed as a ridge helmet.

The Viborg tunic (or shirt) was of two layers of linen; although no padding was found AFAIK between the layers, a case could be made for this as under-armor padding.

Dave Womble · Post by **Dave Womble** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 1:43 pm

No real difference between a 9th century viking and a 10th century viking.

A Viking in 793 would be almost identical to one at Stamford bridge...cut of tunic and style of trousers might be a bit different (depending on if he was Norwegian, a Swede, or a Dane and wether or not he was influenced by the Rus, the Irish, or other people) and the artistic styles of jewelry and adornment changed over the course of the viking period (Borre, Mammen, Ringericke, Jelling, Urnes etc etc (yes I know they're in the wrong order).

Dave

Buran · Post by **Buran** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 7:25 pm

Would they have started using kite shields at about Stamford time?

Dave Womble · Post by **Dave Womble** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 8:33 pm

I dont have a definate date for the 1st kites used in viking hands, but they begin to be used around that time, yes. Centergrip rounds hung around for awhile though.

Dave

Wyrm · Post by **Wyrm** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 9:42 pm

Dave Womble wrote:No real difference between a 9th century viking and a 10th century viking.
Dave

So by saying that you're saying I could wear a Gjermundbu spectacle styled helm during the middle to late 10th century, carry a round centre grip shield in one hand and a skeggox in the other without any problem then?

Buran · Post by **Buran** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:20 am

Isn't there an period illustration of a naseled helm in a bible or somesuch? As I briefly glimpsed it, it was pictured off its owner, laying on the ground. Maybe I was hallucinating. (That may belong in I Want to Be an Anglo-Saxon)

Also, what leads you to using braies and hosen for Vikings?

Dave Womble · Post by **Dave Womble** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:31 am

So by saying that you're saying I could wear a Gjermundbu spectacle styled helm during the middle to late 10th century, carry a round centre grip shield in one hand and a skeggox in the other without any problem then?

That style of helm wouldnt be as common I dont think in the mid to late 900's as it would have been in the 800's, but you wouldnt raise any eyebrows I dont think. A conical nasaled helm would be more common, but the Gjermundbu style wouldn't be a far stretch I dont think. Mord? Halvgrim? What say you?

The shield and axe combo is fine. If you plan on wearing a mail shirt, you're probably going to want to get a decent sword...because if you are wealthy enough to have a shirt and helm, ideally you'd have a sword. You could also build a story around the earlier helm by calling it an heirloom....equipment was often passed down through the family...especially if the previous users were well known and had done great things (exploration, trading and combat wise).

Dave

Wyrm · Post by **Wyrm** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 7:53 pm

I like to stay away from having to make a story to explain my gear, if I use a Gjermundbu style helm I would probably keep myself to no later than the 9th century, myself anyway. As for taking a sword over an axe thats an iterested one I hadnt thought of. I prefer axes myself over swords, just my weapon preferences - i know a sword is often a symbol of status as with a mail shirt but I dont think it would be unlikely myself to find Hersirs or other such high ranking warriors choosing to fight with axe over another weapon. Very debatable thought perhaps - the axe often thought of as a commoners tool.

Dave Womble wrote:The shield and axe combo is fine. If you plan on wearing a mail shirt, you're probably going to want to get a decent sword...because if you are wealthy enough to have a shirt and helm, ideally you'd have a sword. You could also build a story around the earlier helm by calling it an heirloom....equipment was often passed down through the family...especially if the previous users were well known and had done great things (exploration, trading and combat wise).

Dave

Dave Womble · Post by **Dave Womble** » Wed Jun 22, 2005 5:00 am

I'm an axe guy too, but I still keep my sword with me, I just use the axe instead of the sword.

My current axe is a crappy generiviking one I bought at a ren faire years ago from La Forge. Trumpet shaped blade, socketed head...not really appropriate, but it's all I have currently. I have a custom axe based off the Mammen find commisioned to Penguin Arms of Eagle River Alaska, though mine wont have the silver inlay (kinda cost prohibitive for me) so I cant wait to get it.

Dave

Greenshield · Post by **Greenshield** » Thu Jun 30, 2005 10:20 pm

Since folks are showing off here is my Viking steel kit. So far it's passed muster at all the English and European shows I've done. The helm is a bit posh but as far as I've seen, acceptable. The boots on the non-armoured pic are always in contention and I have replaced them with a less troublesome set of footwear

Camric

JJ Shred · Post by **JJ Shred** » Thu Jun 30, 2005 11:10 pm

Check out the post on the first pic right behind him!

Where was that pic taken? I want to trim my barn like that, with crossed dragon heads over the gable. Then paint it with oxblood/linseed oil with either milk or egg tempera on the carvings....That should scare off those vicious Mennonites and Evangelistic Christians!

Maeryk · Post by **Maeryk** » Thu Jun 30, 2005 11:26 pm

Honest question:

Isn't "viking" a verb?

Did these people call themselves Vikings? or is this someone elses terminology applied to them?

maeryk

JJ Shred · Post by **JJ Shred** » Thu Jun 30, 2005 11:48 pm

To go a viking is a verb. I don't think they referred to themselves that way anymore than a serf would explain his position in a "feudal" society, or an Irishman refer to himself as a "celt".
Modern terms.

Dave Womble · Post by **Dave Womble** » Fri Jul 01, 2005 5:38 am

Different folks had different names for them...the Franks, English, Friesians, all of em called them something different, ususally something along the lines of "pagan northmen". As to what they called themselves, we dont know really. I tend to believe they called themselves after the region or homestead they came from. There wasnt really a nationalistic pride until well after the viking age, it was much more local....so you wouldnt see a viking thumping his chest proclaiming to be a Swede! or a Norwegian! or a Dane! or an Icelander! or a Greenlander! However, I believe certain areas of those countries were more prone to producing great warriors and leaders, and would identify themselves in that manner. Speculation on my part though.

Dave

Buran · Post by **Buran** » Fri Jul 01, 2005 11:49 am

How about naked wood on shields? Is this supported by archaeology?

Felix Wang · Post by **Felix Wang** » Fri Jul 01, 2005 2:11 pm

For certain, the Gokstad shields were uncovered, since the wood was painted. However, there is a possibility that these were strictly funeral pieces, which may have changed construction techniques. Other shields are known to have been covered with leather.

Dave Womble · Post by **Dave Womble** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:38 pm

From what I've read, it was as common to have uncovered shields as it was to cover them.

I highly recomend The Anglo Saxon Shield by I.P. Stephenson for anyone interested in Migration and Viking age shields.

Dave

T. Finkas · Post by **T. Finkas** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 7:23 am

Greenshield,

Cool photos and some nice looking gear!

You mentioned the helmet was too "posh". Isn't that sort of brow decoration from Vendel type helmets? I don't remember seeing any evidence of that treatment from "viking" times. What's your source for this?
Also, what is the inspiration for the contrasting color gores of your tunic. Is this based on something in particular or just artistic whimsy?

Impressive kit!

Cheers,
Tim

Greenshield · Post by **Greenshield** » Mon Jul 11, 2005 10:20 pm

Tim,

Not being an expert on the subject, but having read up on broad aspects of the era, I will do my feeble best to answer your questions

Tim asked:
>You mentioned the helmet was too "posh". Isn't that sort of brow decoration from Vendel type helmets? I don't remember seeing any evidence of that treatment from "viking" times. What's your source for this?

As far as I know there is no evidence for this. If I am not mistaken, there has only been one helm from the Viking era found so far and it is the basis for this helm. The rest is decoration representing a wealthy warrior.

Tim asked:
>Also, what is the inspiration for the contrasting color gores of your tunic. Is this based on something in particular or just artistic whimsy?

Artistic whimsy might be the best answer to your question. Actually, I used the multicolored gores because there are a few (2 actually) depicted on the Bayou Tapestry and I saw their use in a few of the English reenactment groups such as Regia and The Vikings and liked the look of it.
Since the B.T. is taken as a credible source by some and not by others, I'd have to say that artistic whimsy fits best in this case, to be on the safe side.

And the ladies seem to be quite fond of it

Cheers!

Camric

ticeetal · Post by **ticeetal** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:36 am

Greetings All,

I was wondering what I could do to make a (Paul Chen Practical) Viking Sword/Scabbard look more correctly period. Also any sources for scabbard ideas, fittings, and baldric ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Odeane

Dave Womble · Post by **Dave Womble** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 7:19 pm

As I said in my reply to this same question you posted on Arador, take a peek at the "possibility of viking lamellar" thread I started some time ago on Arador. Interesting discussion.

But, for anyone else who stumbled accross this and is also wondering and doesnt want to take the time to search out the other thread, in a nutshell: Probably not. A trader likely wouldnt even wear armour....he'd likely have bodyguards or just buddies watching his back and his wares...theyd most likely be the ones wearing armour.

It also depends on what trade routes your frequenting....what lands your going through. The Slavs could be quite hostile at times, as could other peoples.

Dave

Mord · Post by **Mord** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 8:05 am

wbf wrote:Greetings !!!

I have a strange question here... I know that the majority of professional Norse,Danish warriors used maille, if they could afford it...

Would it be possible for a trader to use lamellar, like the Varangain's or could lamellar suit be made from leather ?? Or would it be metal only ??

Something like this ??
http://www.plasticlamellar.com/images/Brodir-1.jpg

Any help is welcomed !!

Thanks !!
JJ

Lamellar was found at the Berg (the hill-fort) at Birka. However, the plates found are nothing like what you have. There is information on this--I have some, but it's in Swedish. Halvgrim (very nice fellow that he is) had some of this information translated. Also, White Mountain Armoury and GAA Armouries often sell them appropriate plates

As for the plastic lamellar you display here, no, there is no documentation that Scandinavians wore that pattern (or at least none that I could find). However, I wear plastic lamellar for my SCA fighting and it works swell, so I'm really not criticizing you for your choice; however, I am aware of the differences.

Mord.

Halberds · Post by **Halberds** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 8:55 pm

Would this pass?
http://home.armourarchive.org/members/h ... berds1.jpg
I wanna be an old Viking Armourer....

Hal

Ps: I know my 19th. century pipe pedestal is all wrong; as well as the anvil from harbor freight....
I have been working on my kit. I need a pic for my host and vendor's web page.
This is first pass at pic. Any help is always welcome.

Thank you for your support,

Mord · Post by **Mord** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 2:05 pm

Halberds,

Are you really interested in Viking Age tools? Information does exist (and not just what everybody knows about!). If I can find it (which will take awhile), and copy such (which will also take awhile), do you want it?

Mord.

Halberds · Post by **Halberds** » Thu Sep 01, 2005 2:39 pm

I guess it would of made my pic better to have the correct tools.
One can never have enough information.
Yes if it is not to much trouble for you.

Hal

Ps: No hurry I can not buy any new tools for a long long time.

David Blackmane · Post by **David Blackmane** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 5:06 pm

What's a good source of Norse maille dimensions circa 900 AD? This is in regards to ring inner dimensions, wedge shape, whether or not fully riveted was more common as opposed to alternating riveted/solid rings.

Some of the sources I've seen site 1/4" id rings all the way up to 1/2" id rings, with even butted maille made of small heavy gauge rings being described as extant.

Dave Womble · Post by **Dave Womble** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 6:24 pm

as far as I know, mail was pretty standard in its dimensions...The only surviving mail we have from the viking age is the Gjermundbu (sp?) shirt, and you can read all about it here:

http://www.angelfire.com/wy/svenskildbi ... lshrt.html

Construction details (what we know of them) are there.

Whoever told you small ring butted mail was extant doesn't really know what they're talking about. Butted mail is all but non existant historically in any time or place, never mind Viking Age Europe.

As far as what was more common, all riveted, or alternating, we really dont know....since there's only 1 find. You cant tell either by the literary or artistic evidence depicting/portraying mail. Its just not that detailed.
I believe there's evidence of forge welded rings and punched rings from the time, (though I cannot cite specific sources) so I would say both types were known, and it depended on how wealthy you were, skill of the armourer, length of time a warrior wanted to have an armourer working on it and other variables.

The wedge didnt have a special shape as far as I know...mail was either riveted shut with a triangular slice wedge (European) or a dome (Eastern/Oriental).

Dave

Flosi · Post by **Flosi** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 7:13 pm

'The Vikings' guide to chain mail ring sizes can be found by clicking the link. It covers the specs for the gjermundbu and also the specs for finds around that time line.

Halvgrimr · Post by **Halvgrimr** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 2:56 pm

Hal

The articles you want to track down on Viking Age tools are:

The MÃƒÂ¤stermyr Find, A Viking Age Tool Chest from Gotland, Arwidsson, G. & Berg, G. , Stockholm, 1983.

Selected Objects from the Stock of the Tjele Smith, OFFA, Vol 41, 1984

I can send you copies of the last one if you want

Halv

wbf · Post by **wbf** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 8:37 am

http://www.jomsvikings.com

I found that link while surfing around... Looks like a good place to get some ideas on kit and such....

I wanna be a VIKING

sword n' scabbard

I wanna be a Viking armourer.