I wanna be a LANDSKNECHT

[JT]

I don't even know when I should be from, but I really like the sound of "LANDSKNECHT"

[Karl Helweg]

Forget all of those other pansy personae. Big, hairy, sweaty, real men who aren't afraid to come out from behind a up turned table do Landsknecht.

Landsknechte were suped up Swiss pikemen mostly from the Holy Roman Empire (roughly modern Germnay+). They became recognizable about 1500 and continued through the 30 Years War. In 1502 in the Treaty of Worms (sort of a German Magna Carta) the Emporer excluded them from sumptuary laws or medieival dress codes in order to increase enlistment. I'm sure he figured: "How bad can they dress?" Oh my* The cod-peices alone got them all a mass excommunication.

The majority were Speisstrager or pikemen only a few wore enough armour to even approach SCA mins. However the Dopplesolldners and staff members were often armoured half way, which is what I'm working on. (Mark III at Gulf Wars this weekend)

There are threads about Landsknechte on the Authenticity forum and my armour (Mark II) is on the Fighting forum "Show your kit thread"

http://www.romaculta.it/det/sacco_di_roma.html (note: site is in German)

(Edit by JT... replaced link that got to above site via a Google image-search with the direct site url)

[verminaard]

How do people do the slashed soft kit? I have tried a couple of methods, but nothing works how I want it to.

[seyc]

Have you tried fulled/felted wool or leather?

[James B.]

I don't believe in using leather but felted wool can be slashed without unraveling. There is a surviving Swiss example that is knitted silk and the slashing is knitted into the design.

[Maeryk]

I have only ever seen one "bit" made of leather.. and it was the seat of the pants, not slashed. That is _NOT_ to say they didn't do it, just that I have never seen any documenation for it.

Fulled wool seems to work the nuts.. my wife has made me two suits that way now, and they are both holding together well, and solidly.

Theres a couple of ways to "cheat" and use other fabrice.. like using cotton with the edges stitched (or fraycheked), but it doesn't really ever look right.

Though there _IS_ some evidence for cotton being used later period in the clothing, it probably wasnt used for outerwear much.. mostly undies and such.

Before you go hacking stuff up, take a good look at the woodcuts and art of the period.. its not as slashed as most people seem to make their first attempt seem.. typically poufy sleeves and tights, or layers of a rock (coat) with or withotu sleeves and with a pretty good "Skirt" over knee-length slashed pants over a pair of tights.

Lots of layering on these when possible!

Maeryk

[JT]

Instead of putting a slash in a single piece of fabric, form a slash by sewing two pieces of fabric together, and leaving a slit.

Obviously, this won't work (well) if you have lots and lots of tiny slashing.

[Maeryk]

You still have hte problem, JT, of unraveling fabric though. On my "dress suit" that my wife made, I have:

A) tights on (with garish mismatched socks.. one up one down)

B) Pluterhosen over the tights.. think bermuda shorts with slashing over linen underlining, and with those funky cutouts (the name of which I cannot remember) hanging at the knees. This ties to the Jerkin

(thats the bottom half)

The top is a cream/white silk shirt, with a black/burgundy wool jerkin over it, which ties down the front. THat has the slashed burgundy wool sleeves and the black slashed body.. which has the fairly typical palm-frond slashing on the back and some gill slashing on the front. The sleeves are just loooong slashes from top to bottom which are then tied back together at the elbow.

Then the rock (which a lot of SCAdians call a "waffenrock" or "war coat") which is they crossover front type, with a mid-thigh skirt built into it, which also ties shut.. and if I remember correctly, no sleeves, just slight sleeve caps set in at the shoulders. And I don't think that one is slashed at all.

Add a pair of cowmouths and either an arming cap or a pizza cap, and you have quick and dirty (and well done) Landsknecht.

What I love about the Rock is that it works wonderfully as underpadding for my dress breastplate.. and I suspect thats why they did the full overlap placard on the front of some of them.. its basically a gambezon as well.

Maeryk

[Gyszel]

Re: slashing, there is also a neat trick to know about fabric:

Most fabrics are woven with two threads 90 degrees from each other. If you cut "on the bias", that means the slash is going 45 degrees to each of the threads. This produces a tiny bit of fraying (competely accurate for this persona and oh so fashionable for der Landsknechten), and prevents your garment from unravelling around your body.

Does require a lot more skill with fitting, though, because fabric sewn on the bias will "sag" after use. This is also perfectly accurate, but doesn't work well with modern cuts and seam lines.

Other fabrics (a-la velvet) are just pressed together, and you can slash the living cr@p outta them, and they'll never ravel. Velvet was also used by high-up German solders and their wives, but if you're re-enacting the lower class soldiers, you wouldn't really be able to afford this. (Even if you stole it off someone else, you'd have to report it to the Booty Master, and they'd probably confiscate it and give it to someone of a more suitable rank).

IMHO the BEST fabrics for German recreation are the good ol standbys: Wool and linen. I've worn a dress comprised of 2 layers of linen, 2 layers of wool and 1 layer of silk (yes, on the same dress), while 6 months pregnant in the middle of a stinkin hot July camping event. I was comfortably warm, but not dying of the heat.

Someday I'm even going to attempt some true wool hosen for my darling husband....if he'll just get over the "they itch" factor.

If anyone has more questions about Landsknecht garb and the construction thereof, I'd love to help or do more research!!
Sincerely,
Herrin Gyszel Adeler

[verminaard]

Bias... I'll have to try that.
I don't play sca, but I do fight every weekend and am hard on clothes. I worry about buying wool for field garb, as cotton is cheap and plentiful. My more accurate garb is going for a different look, but I like to have other choices, landsknecht being at the top of the list.

[Robert of Canterbury]

Posted elsewhere by Giano.

[/quote]
AFAIR pay was always monthly, though usually neither regular nor reliable. A compilation of pay rates for 1526 is quoted in Pleticha: Deutsche Geschichte 6, Reformation und Gegenreformation, unfortunately without a precise identification of the source. It gives the following rates of monthly pay (selection, condensed) :

common Landsknecht 4 guilders (fl)
officers' servants and cooks 4fl
captain's bodyguard 4fl
musicians 4fl
chaplain at Faehnlein level 8fl
sergeant 12fl
Faehnrich 20fl
lieutenant 20fl
captain 40fl
regimental train officer (Hurenweibel) 12fl
wagonner 4fl
colonel's bodyguard 4fl
regimental musicians 8fl
surgeon and physician 40fl
regiment level officer 40fl
regimental scribe 24fl
regimental chaplain 12fl
lieutenant colonel 100fl
colonel 400fl

This seems to be representative. THe pay is quite good - almost double what a skilled labourer got for a common landsknecht. However, I doubt many commanders were as solicitous as Georg von Frundsberg, who pawned the family jewels for several months' outstanding pay. Never got it back, either.[/quote]

[Gyszel]

Bias... I'll have to try that.
I don't play sca, but I do fight every weekend and am hard on clothes. I worry about buying wool for field garb, as cotton is cheap and plentiful.

If this is off topic, please let me know.

For the money, I think that wool and linen go a lot further than cotton. First, for it's durablility. Treated properly, wool and linen are as strong as cotton, and if you DO manage to rip the fabric, they won't fray as badly.

Second, versatility. Cotton is usually blended with synthetic fibers, even when marked "100% cotton". Wool and linen (when pure) breathe much better, retain their shape better, and wash up better than cotton. Also, in thin cotton you're likely to freeze your butt off when the temperature drops in the evenings. In linen and wool, you'll be cool in the heat (linen wisks away the moisture from your body, the wool absorbs it and then evaporates it to act like a portable airconditioner). Cotton will just absorb your sweat and stick to you. The same outfit will then easily retain your body heat at night. (who doesn't love a warm wool cloak at night?)

Thirdly, though this may not matter, it's much easier to work with while sewing! It's hard to explain why, but I just really enjoy making linen and wool garb.

In my personal experience, I've had to replace nearly all my cotton garb in less than a year of owning it. I have yet had to replace any of my wool or linen garb, in over 4 years. It's also my preference to wear because of all the above reasons, and it's more authentic to boot! "Pound for pound", I'll shell out the extra $$ up front for wool, and have it forever.

Sorry if I got off topic here...maybe this is better suited to a fabric/garb discussion list.

Gyszel

[Karl Helweg]

I can't sew worth much but I am a bit of a Landsknecht "clothes horse." There are several secondary sorces for leather Landsknecht and a few rare surviving examples such as in the Nurmburg nitrogen vault. It is still best to punch holes in leather then cut lines between to help keep it from ripping farther. Remember that Germans like(d) pig skin which is naturally perforated, soft, and dyes very bright. The Triumph of Maximillian also gives special credit to ibex, chamois, and deer hunters which the poetry implies were commanded to be harvested by "His Grace" and "Imperial Order." With Master Domingo's help leather has worked very well for me and I have an excellent cheap supply for garment leather locally.

I just don't like wool much. I probably had a grandsester who felt the same. Linens, silks, and linen/silk blends (which Thai Silk sells) are great underclothes.

There is no two ways about it, Landsknecht is tricky to make. Vis. Leia once made "Do-it-yourself-Landsknecht" where she sewed layered wool/linen doublets and breeches then included chalk and a razor. Remember that Landsknechts favored the Burgundian or saltair cross rather than the wimpy white crusifix of the cantons. Tygger Togs can help with bright tights and socks (as of Gulf Wars). Tygger will make tights with footies for a couple dollars more. He will also quarter or strip them. Not painfully authentic but there are worse places to start. Conflicting colored sashes above the calves wouldn't hurt.

[Maeryk]

Tygger Togs can help with bright tights and socks

Seconded on the Tygger! If you can stand wearing footless tights made out of lycra/cotton blend, with a built in codpiece, these things kick ass and wear like iron. I bought two pairs at Pennsic 21.. and just retired them last year, when I finally caught up to him again and picked up two more pairs.

Nothing can work better than real, custom fitted tights.. but in a pinch, these work great.

Maeryk

[Karl Helweg]

http://216.239.39.104/translate_c?hl=en ... D%26sa%3DG

This is a good looking LH group that might help with camp/guarb ideas. I've taken the liberty of translating it into English.

[James B.]

On clothe and it's durability. Wool will out last cotton any day. I started my interest in this hobby as a LARP/Ren Faire guy making cotton clothes. They needed repair after every event. I now do 15th century living history and have done tons of hard work and fighting demos in the same hosen for 2 years made of bias cut medium weight twill wool and they have not once ripped. I even had a pole arm blade snag in them and stretched them out 5 or 6 inches without damage. They also do not itch; unless you are allergic or wearing rough spun that should not be an issue.

I also SCA fight in wool hosen with a linen cotte and have never ripped any off that clothing. Cotton just plain sucks.

I spent more on my LARP/Ren garb because I ripped a $9 pair of pants each event than I have on my LH wool hosen that cost about $30 worth of material including wool, linen thread, and a silk strip to reinforce the waist where the points are.

Here is a link to one of the better looking Landsknecht groups out there:

http://www.st-max.org/

[mattmaus]

What I would really like to see... is a Lansknecht getting dressed.

Step by step, layer by layer.

Flonzy/James did this with his 14th century kit (I think). And it's just cool. It provides an excellent break down of what each peice of a soft kit does to make the 'whole look'.

[kass]

<cough cough> Coming this Spring <cough cough>

http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/patterns/german.html

Kass

[Karl Helweg]

For Inspiration
http://www.fourhorsemenproductions.com/Empire.htm
and
http://www.landsknecht.com/html/photos.html
http://frazzledfrau.glittersweet.com/
http://www.varmouries.com/vcat_10.html

<a href=http://216.239.39.104/translate_c?hl=en&u=http://www.schwarzer-schwan.de/Verzeichnis/Bilder/Ronneburg/ronneburg.htm&prev=/search%3Fq%3DLandsknecht%2BGruppe%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG" target=_new>Really Long Link Name -- schwarzer-schwan.de site</a>

Yet another inspirational site. Schoss Ronneburg is a beautiful site that the SCA also used and did a lot of work to restore. Sir Wulfhere can take a lot of credit for that. Germans' idea of cool and macho colors can be a bit different than Americans. Just keep the pink outfit in mind when choosing guarb colors.

(Edit by JT to make the link text a bit shorter than what phpBB does.)

[woodwose]

What I would really like to see... is a Lansknecht getting dressed.

Step by step, layer by layer.

Flonzy/James did this with his 14th century kit (I think). And it's just cool. It provides an excellent break down of what each peice of a soft kit does to make the 'whole look'.

I want to start working on something like that if I ever get together a kit that I happy enough with... what I have now is close, but the only shirts I have aren't quite right.. here's one of my better pictures:

[img]http://mailmaker.tripod.com/garb/rocb.jpg[/img]

though its from behind and I'm holding an atlatl, and my messer is out view on the other side of me.. I should take a look through a friends SCA pictures, seems like half of them are of me so there might be some good ones of this kit that I could scan and post.

I've been working on a page about my landsknecht costuming stuff, its on my site (http://mailmaker.tripod.com) in the "behind door #5" section of misc. stuff; and there's some pictures of my new rapier helm (which I use for my landsknecht kit) in the armor section.

[kass]

Lovely Waffenrok, Dweezle. Well done!

Gyszel and James are right about using wool and linen. Cotton isn't worth the money, even if it is only $1 a yard. You get what you pay for, folks! It sticks to you when it gets sweaty, it's cold when it's cold, and it falls apart after heavy wear and washing. Not to mention, it's not terribly nice to work with. Gyszel's right about sewing linen and wool -- it's much easier! And when you can get linen at Fabrics-store.com for under $6 a yard, why use cotton?

Gyszel, I just scored two bolts of tropical-weight wool from Fabric Dragon for $4 a yard. If you're going to A&S Champs, I bet she'll be there. It's light and soft and if Maeryk thinks this stuff itches, he's insane!

For those of you Lansknecht officianadoes who can make it to Pennsylvania in mid-June, I strongly encourage you to join us at the Ukranian Homestead for Landsknecht Vereidegung on the 17-19 June. Maeryk and Gyszel will be there, as will I and my lovely apprentices. And Brewer Bob will be heralding Court in his Bucksenmeister kit complete with naked right thigh.

Oh, and <cough cough> shipping end of May <cough cough> [/url]

[Corwin of ArgentLupe]

I have decided that my new armor kit is going to be Landskneckt, but I want to do something a little "different". I'm thinking of making the kit so I appear "naked". In effect, I want to field a soft-looking kit.

My question is has anyone tried this before? (with either good or bad results) If not, does anyone have any ideas on how to accomplish this?

[Karl Helweg]

http://www.globaleffects.com/C_pages/Rental/Wardrobe/Armor/Period/CompleteSuit/European/ArmorFS708_hi.jpg

[brewer]

I have decided that my new armor kit is going to be Landskneckt, but I want to do something a little "different". I'm thinking of making the kit so I appear "naked". In effect, I want to field a soft-looking kit.

My question is has anyone tried this before? (with either good or bad results) If not, does anyone have any ideas on how to accomplish this?

Yes, many have done this before. It's quite simple! All you need do is cover it up.

With Landsknecht, this is particularly easy. You can wear a baggy Waffenrok on your upper body to hide the body, neck, and arm armour. Pluderhosen hides the leg armour. The only thing showing will be your hat and gauntlets!

[Karl Helweg]

Argentlupe - I am going the other way and working on the Landsknecht plate but even then I have to hide minimum knees under my hosen and it would seem as easy to hide elbows under a good doublet. I saw a fellow who made his sleeves out of about 8oz leather strips which looked pretty correct and provided a lot of protection. If you are just doing spear (Speisstrager) you can get away without thighs at least. Would you wear a chain Bishop's Mantel?

Does anyone know these folks? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... eName=WDVW

[kass]

Now available and in stock:

Early 16th century German patterns

[Maeryk]

Does anyone know these folks?

Yeah.. I know Slug. Kinda skeevy in person, but I have never heard anyone have an issue with his products. They are probably lycra/spandex tho.. if you are looking for "period" tights I would ask very carefully what you are getting from him.

personally, for non-period but wear-like-iron tights, I prefer T'ger Togs.. they come with a built in codpiece that is FUNCTIONAL! (You can use the stand-up loo without dropping your tights).

Maeryk

[Egfroth]

I put some nice pics of c. 1520 English and German landesknechts at http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=46902

[Corwin of ArgentLupe]

Argentlupe - I am going the other way and working on the Landsknecht plate but even then I have to hide minimum knees under my hosen and it would seem as easy to hide elbows under a good doublet. I saw a fellow who made his sleeves out of about 8oz leather strips which looked pretty correct and provided a lot of protection. If you are just doing spear (Speisstrager) you can get away without thighs at least. Would you wear a chain Bishop's Mantel?

I have a bishop's mantle now, but I'm not sure how it would work with all the armor hidden.

I'm thinking the easiest way is just to make all the garb and to "install" armor as neccessary.

[woodwose]

we were supposed to go to an event in quebec last weekend but weren't able to for various reasons so we wandered off into the woods and went camping instead. there's a few new pics on my site from that weekend, here-
http://mailmaker.tripod.com/garb/crossbow.html
of me playing with the crossbow and not wearing the waffenroc sort of thing (and with new hose on one leg)... but the six pics aren't really thumbnails and are between 200 and 600k so it might take a while to load with slower connections

I'm still working on small alterations here and there and hope to start on a new doublet and an elkskin jerkin sometime, and hope to have some messers to play with soon

[Karl Helweg]

Corwin, sorry that I've been gone for a bit. It's our busy season. What "Landsknecht underarmour" have you actually tried fighting in so far? Do you have minimum hidden armor already?

[rameymj]

Has anyone tried the Reconstructing History patterns? Specifically the 16th cen German Wams & Hosen
http://reconstructinghistory.com/patterns/wamshosen.html

and Waffenrok
http://reconstructinghistory.com/patterns/waffenrok.html

Any feedback good, bad, or difficult? Are they sized correctly? Do the slashed parts run with the grain or the bias?

Most importantly, did you like the resulting clothes?

MJRamey

[Broadway]

How bout shields?

Where shields totally abandoned on the battlefield by the time of these guys? If they had shields, what sizes/materials/shapes?

Thanks for the help in advance...

[Maeryk]

Pavises. With guns behind them.

No carried shields that I am in any way aware of. The vast majority of the weapons in use were two handed to begin with.. either large swords, or halberds or pikes.. kind of useless to have a shield in that position.

The "last resort" weapon was (typically) the Katzbalger (cat gutter) a relatively short sword (or big dagger) that hung on the left side of the belt (or between the legs !!!) which could be drawn with the right hand while the left held the pike in line (butt of the pike braced with foot) and used for hand to hand should someone get into the line.

But I have _NEVER_ seen an illustration of either a Landsknecht or a Swiss Condotteri with a hand held shield for the purpose of personal defense.

In front of crossbows, boom sticks, and cannons is a different story.. but those were usually either mounted directly TO the cannon or planted in the ground.

Maeryk

[InsaneIrish]

Pavises. With guns behind them.

No carried shields that I am in any way aware of. The vast majority of the weapons in use were two handed to begin with.. either large swords, or halberds or pikes.. kind of useless to have a shield in that position.

The "last resort" weapon was (typically) the Katzbalger (cat gutter) a relatively short sword (or big dagger) that hung on the left side of the belt (or between the legs !!!) which could be drawn with the right hand while the left held the pike in line (butt of the pike braced with foot) and used for hand to hand should someone get into the line.

But I have _NEVER_ seen an illustration of either a Landsknecht or a Swiss Condotteri with a hand held shield for the purpose of personal defense.

In front of crossbows, boom sticks, and cannons is a different story.. but those were usually either mounted directly TO the cannon or planted in the ground.

Maeryk

Maeryk I have to disagree about the shields thing. I have seen a wood cut of a group fo landsknect with what look like Trapazoid shaped center grip shields. I will look and try and find the picture.