I wanna be a LANDSKNECHT

Gerhard von Liebau · Post by **Gerhard von Liebau** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:45 am

Can I get some links to images of zweihanders from the 1540s? The majority of the very long, flamberged examples I've seen date to the second half of the 16th century, from what I understand... Besides the crude interpretations in several different woodcuts, I can't think of any good examples I've seen real images of.

-Gregory

CT03 · Post by **CT03** » Fri Sep 18, 2009 2:02 pm

I am a bit new to the forum but have been arround the landsknecht circle a few years now... I am a member of www.fahnlein.com the DHF.

anyhoo I saw your posts about helmets and armour a bit back there so here are two picks that might interest you. The helmet and almein collar are from the 1520s and on display at the Nueremberg castel museum from my trip there in 06 and the armour is munitions type armour in the style you can also see in lots of woodcuts... the arms a bit on the heinous side

and yours truly wearing an almein collar and the creature from the black lagoon helmet style burgeonet... yes I know the gorget is supposed to go under the breast plate but I still need to get a better made one for that...

Rittmeister Frye · Post by **Rittmeister Frye** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:58 pm

Check out the Discriminating General's wool selection:
http://www.militaryheritage.com/wool.htm

$18.95 per METER, minimum order is 10 meters (which is almost 11 yards). I ordered some of their nice blue melton, and it is GREAT woolen goods! I KNOW they have red, and probably have yellow for Musick's uniforms.

I know it's still pricey, and what are you going to do with the extra 8 yards of wool? Well, you HAVE to know some other Landsknechts, right? Sell them your extra for $25 a yard, they'll be getting a screaming deal.

Cheers!

Gordon

GvR · Post by **GvR** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:20 pm

*Blink-blink* It's 5 yards just for wams. Hosen is another 4 yards or more if you're a mutant freak like me. A waffenrock is another 6 yards. And of course I cannot go to an even with only 1 set of clothing. Being stylish aint cheap.

WvK

Rittmeister Frye · Post by **Rittmeister Frye** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 11:28 pm

WvK wrote:Being stylish aint cheap.

WvK

Truer words were never spoken! But also remember that poor taste costs even more!

Cheers!

Gordon

CT03 · Post by **CT03** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:50 am

WvK wrote:I just wish I could find wool in red or yellow that didn't rape my wallet.
Black I can find. Grey I can find. Anything remotely flamboyant......$300 minimum order. It harshes my medieval psychedelic mellow.

Yep, my red and yellow clothes set me back a cool $350 for cloth alone and another 60 hours of construction time...

Try your local thrift store... bring a lighter with you and look for wool blankets and big coats... If it has a tag you can see if it is pure wool or you can pry a small sample thread loose and take it *outside* for a burn test... if it melts it's got poly in it and is no good... if it smoulders into an ash that you can crush with your fingers its wool... The last kit I made was from old coats and blankets and material cost was a grand whopping $30... Hey your going to cut most of it into strips anyway to sew back together... if you want garish colors (who doesn't) check out womens wool coats, you will probably find more red wool than you can shake a stick at... or get familiar with rit dye... you can change any wool from lighter to darker for a mere $2.50 per lb. This past weekend I picked up about 11 yards of green brown and black wool at a swap meet for $15... be creative there are a lot of good sources out there, and if you study old clothes you will find out that a lot of clothing was pieced together by the tailor to use every bit of cloth out of the bolt available... hey cloth was worth more than land.

And my opinion about a kit for new folk... well you don't have to look like a Hauptman or Doppelsoeldner on day one...

Karl Helweg · Post by **Karl Helweg** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:21 am

http://www.96storehouse.com/OurStore/ta ... fault.aspx

These folks seem to have 60" royal blue wool for $15.00/yd. They were always about the friendliest folks that you ever dealt with when I would see them at 18th century events like Ft. Defiance. Since they cater to 18th century too it would probably be a good idea to contact them and see if they at least have red (coat) wool for sale. They said that they did a lot of close out buying on the side.

I seem to have trouble breathing if wool is too close to my face so I don't own much except for pants (that living in an Alaskan rain forest thing).

Ancel fitzCharles · Post by **Ancel fitzCharles** » Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:26 pm

So what weight wool should we be looking for. I got swatches from Wollrich for their Arts and Crafts wools, and their Civil War wools. Both seem too light for the job, and the Civil war wools have some nylon in them (keep the uniform crisp, I guess; can't have the troops look sloppy). But I'm wondering if I'm looking for too heavy a wool.
Ancel

GvR · Post by **GvR** » Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:09 pm

I'm not real sure there is a weight issue so much as that it must be the kind of wool that you can cut without it unraveling.

Ancel fitzCharles · Post by **Ancel fitzCharles** » Sun Oct 11, 2009 9:37 am

I understand that the wool must be fulled (though not felted, yes. Too dense), but if it's too light, it won't look right. I haven't started this project yet, so my wool experience is limited to tunics.
Ancel

Tibbie Croser · Post by **Tibbie Croser** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:03 am

Also, denverfabrics.com is currently selling coating wool in red and yellow for $14 a yard if that helps.

CT03 · Post by **CT03** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 11:04 am

WvK wrote:I'm not real sure there is a weight issue so much as that it must be the kind of wool that you can cut without it unraveling.

you prevent the unraveling by cutting your pattern on the bias (diagonal)... this also makes your fabric a bit stretchier so that you get that sexy landsknecht look and not elephant ankles and saggy bottoms.

Lucian Ro · Post by **Lucian Ro** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:01 am

Shoes.

Yes I know that the cowsmouth shoes have been talked to death along with the square-toes boots as quintessential landsknecht footwear. Question is, are there any other types of shoes worn? I'm assuming turnshoes are too late.

Also, I saw a picture of a woodcut in the Osprey book Henry VIII's Army that showed some landsknechts with kettles/chapels. Really? Never would have thunk it.

CT03 · Post by **CT03** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 8:51 am

Kai wrote:Shoes.

Yes I know that the cowsmouth shoes have been talked to death along with the square-toes boots as quintessential landsknecht footwear. Question is, are there any other types of shoes worn? I'm assuming turnshoes are too late.

Also, I saw a picture of a woodcut in the Osprey book Henry VIII's Army that showed some landsknechts with kettles/chapels. Really? Never would have thunk it.

I would not use the Osprey books as reference material... When ever you use something as a reference which is in itself a secondary or tertiary source you should look in the bibliography as to what their source material is...

As to shoes, I actually did a bit of a study on this this series of pics was in an endevor to argue how the hell you would go into battle wearing something akin to ballet slippers. In good old European mud something like that would last about 3 seconds then try marching hundreds of miles in those little things

http://www.fahnlein.com/forums/photos/p ... lbumid=256

This portion of it only has about 12 pics of woodcuts and origionals but I have seen woodcuts with everything from barefoot to cow mouth boots (Triumph of Maxemillian).

Lucian Ro · Post by **Lucian Ro** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 8:59 am

CT03 wrote:I would not use the Osprey books as reference material...

This is EXACTLY why I mentioned it was a picture of a woodcut, as I'm well aware of the validity of Osprey books. You just need to be around the AA about 37 seconds to know that, lol. I was referencing the woodcut but couldn't think of its name and I do not have access to the book here at work.

Thanks for the link!

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:16 am

A lot of Osprey books are perfectly good places to begin research. They have come a LONG way in 40 years.

They are typically CHOCK full of photos of extant objects, usually (excepting some newer Medieval titles, like Otterburn and Flodden, which for some reason shows authors personal collections of Mediocre armour and weapons, sometimes badly, badly mislabled as to what they are - the authors are better at their history than material objects sometimes)

Look for titles by solid historians, and illustrations by Gerry Embelton, and Graham Turner in particular (Christa Hook is decent as well) - RUN, do not walk, from Angus McBride interpretations of art.

CT03 · Post by **CT03** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:13 am

ouch guess that topic has caused some sore spots before... I just meant to caution...

anywho back to shoes... yes I have seen woodcuts of landsknechte going about: barefoot, with sandal (probably alegory back to a biblical story so probably not a good reference), kuhmaul, what looks like a peasant ankle high turnshoe (see the pic from Duerrer), full length kuhmaul type boots on mounted knights... If you are looking for specifics I can dig down and find them for you...

Lucian Ro · Post by **Lucian Ro** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:22 am

CT03 wrote:ouch guess that topic has caused some sore spots before... I just meant to caution...

Lol, sorry Chris, I meant to add a smiley.

If you are looking for specifics I can dig down and find them for you...

Sure, post 'em if you find a chance.

CT03 · Post by **CT03** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:08 pm

here is the one from Duerer showing the half boot or turn shoe... probably somewhere arround 1510 or so its from his fight book...
need to go dig up my external hard drive it has the rest of my pic collection...

CT03 · Post by **CT03** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:19 pm

From the Baggage train in the Triumph of Max by Altdorfer... just google the Triumph of Maximilian and you will find the ones by Duerrer, Burgkmair, and Altdorfer all of which have a plethora of various different kinds of footwear... this one shows a member of the Tross wearing boots and the ones walking wearing all kinds of other shoes...

Oh heck... here I'll make it easier you can even zoom in on them.
http://search.famsf.org:8080/search.sht ... =&start=11

Dragon_Argent · Post by **Dragon_Argent** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 5:09 pm

chef de chambre wrote: They are typically CHOCK full of photos of extant objects, usually (excepting some newer Medieval titles, like Otterburn and Flodden, which for some reason shows authors personal collections of Mediocre armour and weapons, sometimes badly, badly mislabled as to what they are - the authors are better at their history than material objects sometimes)

I have not seen Otterburn but Flodden was a shocker! Less that half the photos in the book have any real relevance to to period. That said I agree; most newer Ospreys are really quite good and give sources for items shown that can be checked.

Lucian Ro · Post by **Lucian Ro** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 6:44 am

I tried to take a picture of the woodcut (not much luck) from the same Osprey book I mentioned, which shows some of the landsknechts wearing kettle (possibly chapel de fer?) helms.
Question is; is that artistic license or is that plausible?

CT03 · Post by **CT03** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:13 am

Out of over 400 woodcuts I have access to and many more on the online German libraries and collections and have not seen any Landknechte depicted wearing a kettle helm, iron hat, chapel de fer or Eisenhut in any of them... the closest I could remember is the Hans Holbein Woodcut of a battle scene in which there are a few wearing close helms and one chap on the left wearing what looks like a lamellar close helm... don't ask me what that is. I will ask some of my friends in CA if they have seen something like that in other than the Osprey...

http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?tit ... 0829153341

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:46 am

Youm might want to use a different rerm than 'close helm' - those are simple 'mezza ronda', or skullcaps. Most of us conjure images of complete helmets with several lifting visors at the term.

The cap you wonder about is a 'penny-plate' skullcap, literally a cap of hardened leather, or maybe even cloth, with round plates fixed to it as scales. There is one for sure, and I think at least two or three more extant specimens.

It is likely in the same tradition as the workers rope 'hardhats', seen in 15th century art into the 16th century (and I think they lasted longer), made of tightly coiled rope that carpenters wore in Germany and central Europe, that you see in so many German 'roads to Calvary'. There are a few of those things extant as well, surprisingly enough.

CT03 · Post by **CT03** » Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:57 am

chef de chambre wrote:Youm might want to use a different rerm than 'close helm' - those are simple 'mezza ronda', or skullcaps. Most of us conjure images of complete helmets with several lifting visors at the term.

The cap you wonder about is a 'penny-plate' skullcap, literally a cap of hardened leather, or maybe even cloth, with round plates fixed to it as scales. There is one for sure, and I think at least two or three more extant specimens.

It is likely in the same tradition as the workers rope 'hardhats', seen in 15th century art into the 16th century (and I think they lasted longer), made of tightly coiled rope that carpenters wore in Germany and central Europe, that you see in so many German 'roads to Calvary'. There are a few of those things extant as well, surprisingly enough.

Thank you for the clarification... I have been wondering about that image for quite some time...

laevus · Post by **laevus** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:57 am

Does anyone have any suggestions as to where one might locate a chain mantle (ideally in stainless and either riveted or welded)?

Saritor · Post by **Saritor** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:03 am

http://www.atlanta-armory.com/Aventails.html

You just have to let him know you want a mantle instead of an aventail.

Master Knuut also sells welded aventails, which can be modified in to mantles pretty easily.

Icefalcon's the only person that comes to mind right now that carries the riveted aventails cheap (he's got one hell of a sale running), which, again, need some modification, but are otherwise pretty darned good.

Karl Helweg · Post by **Karl Helweg** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:10 pm

laevus wrote:Does anyone have any suggestions as to where one might locate a chain mantle (ideally in stainless and either riveted or welded)?

http://sussen.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/page7.html or http://sussen.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/page15.html but contact Vis. Karl von Sussen first to see what he has in (and possible specials) before ordering. His inventory seems to change all of the time.

http://www.weldedchainmail.com/ You can't go far wrong with Master Knut.

You could cut one of these down. They are welded stainless but very fine. http://www.ringmesh.com/ChainMail_Head_ ... f_s/27.htm

Is this for SCA fighting?

laevus · Post by **laevus** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:40 pm

Karl Helweg wrote: Is this for SCA fighting?

It is. I'm aware that the chain on its own will do very little for padding, but I'm going for a lightly armored 16th century thing, and one consistent pattern I see in woodcuts of Landsknecht who are wearing elbow protection but not a lot otherwise is that they wear a mantle.

I'd also rather avoid having to cut down an aventail. Just feels wasteful, if that makes any sense.

Karl Helweg · Post by **Karl Helweg** » Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:46 pm

laevus wrote:
Karl Helweg wrote: Is this for SCA fighting?
It is. I'm aware that the chain on its own will do very little for padding, but I'm going for a lightly armored 16th century thing, and one consistent pattern I see in woodcuts of Landsknecht who are wearing elbow protection but not a lot otherwise is that they wear a mantle.

I'd also rather avoid having to cut down an aventail. Just feels wasteful, if that makes any sense.

I cut down a coif and know what you mean about it feeling wasteful. I have a strong stingy gene. I gave the rest to my nephews to play with. I have seen fighters attach the aventail to the top of a gorget to both be legal and the gorget seems to make it stand out a bit from them so that it provides more protection. Maybe someone here has those or can dig up pictures of one if that sounds like it might work for you.

Here is an original one that looks like one attached to the top of a gorget. Some folks are also talking about using padded linings to make the more protective and to protect their guarb from the mail.

Balin50 · Post by **Balin50** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:08 pm

Just because our chronicler got some great pics of Southern Crusades

http://www.kokotech.net/bty/The%20Galleries.htm

Great pics

Balin

Karl Helweg · Post by **Karl Helweg** » Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:24 pm

Balin - nice photos!

Any of you planning on going to Gulf Wars this year?

CT03 · Post by **CT03** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:36 am

are you looking for a rivited Bishop's mantle? I just googled it and found a few suppliers in the $100-200 range. such as below...

http://www.by-the-sword.com/acatalog/Bi ... -6825.html

Uadahlrich · Post by **Uadahlrich** » Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:18 am

Anyone have any thoughts as to the quality of these?

http://www.swordsswords.com/German-Hunt ... Sword.aspx

For the price I am excited yet hesitant.

CT03 · Post by **CT03** » Wed Jan 06, 2010 9:17 am

that messer is 440 stainless steel = Sword like object aka wall hanger.

I wanna be a LANDSKNECHT

wool

AA

Re: AA

Re: AA

GW?