I wanna be a LANDSKNECHT

[wcanne]

Greetings,
I fight SCA in a burgonet from Illusion, and have no problems seeing the field. I have as much vision as with any other style of helm I've used over the years.
There are pictures of me in it earlier in this thread.

Hi, this thread has been very helpful, though its a lot to read. I am an SCA fighter, and want to depict a Landsknecht. So I have the problem of needing to wear a helm. I know the Burgonet and Sallet are the more acurate styles but I would really like to be able to have a helm for SCA that would not limit my vision quite so much. (This may have already been answered and I missed it) Would a kettle helm be 'close enough'? Perhaps for someone of low rank? I'm not trying to win any awards for being completely period and documented, but I don't want to insult the historians with blatant inaccuracy.
Thanks

[Karl Helweg]

There is a FaceBook group: "SCA Landsknecht" https://www.facebook.com/groups/SCA.Landsknecht/

[Konstantin the Red]

Hi, this thread has been very helpful . . . I know the Burgonet and Sallet are the more acurate styles but I would really like to be able to have a helm for SCA that would not limit my vision quite so much.

This is a most puzzling remark, given that grill-face burgonets at least are around in our game. What on earth did you put on your head to give you this idea you'd have little vision? Something with a buffe included? How much vision would you rather have, while we're at it?

Sallets, yes, these call for more fudging the details to open them up but you can still have a grill between skull and bevor, right? There is some factor here not made explicit.

[Henrik Granlid]

Bar-grill burgonets are very common, very pretty and extraordinary good at protecting your noggin

[Karl Helweg]

http://www.etsy.com/listing/93327146/me ... ome_active


For the (other) sewing challenged here.

[Karl Helweg]

http://www.amazon.com/The-Ticino-Raider ... B0070NVY46

I just finished reading this novel and enjoyed it. It seems to be pretty much the only Landsknecht novel of the sort and it is fairly well researched. If you are reading this post then it is a pretty safe bet that you will enjoy the book.

[Urban]

I was going to say of course it was done, then I checked the series of woodcut images I have saved. I couldn't find an image of a waffenrock worn with a sallet. I also checked the pdf of the Hofkleiderbuch der Herzogs Wilhelm und Albrecht, which is a Saxon manuscript from the 1500s showing the household livery of the Dukes of Saxony. Lots of waffenrocks, but they are worn with armets, burgonets or just hats.

Lower right hand corner, Looks like a Sallet and Rock (with the archers)

Sorry for the necro, but I was perusing this thread and in my wanderings found this image from Freydal.

http://idb.ub.uni-tuebingen.de/diglit/D ... e262a6f9cb


On a related note, whilst looking through my copy of Triumph and at Freydal, and images here, I don't seem to see any Burgonets. Would a closed burgonet similar to this work with the Waffenrock look? (This particular one is later (1600) and Milanese)

http://www.artic.edu/aic/collections/ci ... 639416.jpg

[Jason Grimes]

The image posted depicts a battle between the Landsknechts and the Swiss Reislaufer. The guys on the right are the Swiss so we might not want to use them as an example. The differences between the two is subtle but important. Pre 1520 you can find many examples of Landsknechten wearing sallets.

About the burgonets, they were just being introduced at the height of the Landsknechts. You can see some early burgs like this famous one here (1520):

dopple1.jpg (95.18 KiB) Viewed 9721 times

You start to see more of them in around 1540 like these ones here:

Landsknecht_Pikemen.jpg (90.4 KiB) Viewed 10870 times

wood02.jpg (47.45 KiB) Viewed 10870 times

[Jason Grimes]

On a related note, whilst looking through my copy of Triumph and at Freydal, and images here, I don't seem to see any Burgonets. Would a closed burgonet similar to this work with the Waffenrock look? (This particular one is later (1600) and Milanese)

http://www.artic.edu/aic/collections/ci ... 639416.jpg

Hi Folcric,

The Landsknecht were pretty much done and over with by this time and that is a closed helmet not a burgonet unfortunately.

[Urban]

Ah, the museum described it as a Burgonet.

[Jason Grimes]

Yes, I guess you could say that, because of the brim on the visor. Seems like a minor distinction to me but it's all good. The biggest problem with the helmet is that it's just too late for the Landskenchts.

[Urban]

Now that I think about it I believe it said "Closed Burgonet".

Anyway, as that's out maybe I'll look at the Sallet route. I was looking through the Triumph of Maximilian, and in one of the "chained crowd" images, there is a Sallet with eyes and a nose. I assumed it was just artistic license, but I found an extant Sallet in a museum catalog (can't remember which museum for the life of me, I'll double check when I get home) that has eyes and nose hammered into the visor, looked pretty cool.

[Urban]

An, found it, from the Wallace collection.

http://wallacelive.wallacecollection.or ... sp=T&sp=14


I'm trying to stay away from using a bar grill if possible, would a full face sallet like the one below be seen on a Landsknecht?

http://wallacelive.wallacecollection.or ... sp=T&sp=14

[Jason Grimes]

If I remember correctly, the A21 sallet does not have a built in lower face protection but uses a bevor. Were you thinking of this one?

trevanion_sallet_203.jpg (27.77 KiB) Viewed 10828 times

Although it is thought that this style is more English/low lands type of helmet than German. There is this one that was made for Maximilian I that has a built-in bevor.

Image1.jpg (53.5 KiB) Viewed 10828 times

If you go with a persona that is at the level of Captain or higher, a lot of options open up with all sorts of closed helmets, armets, etc. to pick from. The Landsknecht foot soldiers didn't like to have their faces covered, probably because they exerted themselves more than the guys on horseback.

I have always liked this helmet, and I think you could add more bars to the visor without it looking bad. This one is very similar to the ones depicted in the woodcut I posted above.

1916.1649.jpg (12.9 KiB) Viewed 10828 times

[Karl Helweg]

If you go with a persona that is at the level of Captain or higher, a lot of options open up with all sorts of closed helmets, armets, etc. to pick from. The Landsknecht foot soldiers didn't like to have their faces covered, probably because they exerted themselves more than the guys on horseback.

I have always liked this helmet, and I think you could add more bars to the visor without it looking bad. This one is very similar to the ones depicted in the woodcut I posted above.

Nice "Sturmburgonet!" What museum is this in? What is is dated? It is the closest extant helm that I have seen to the one in the ToM woodcut above. I think that I can claim "Captain or higher," which is a nice way to phrase it. Now if I could just find someone to make an inexpensive one in stainless.... I am reasonably happy with my armour except for the fugly helm.



BTW - Has anyone seen any inexpensive greaves and sabutons? I have found them but they are asking more than I have in the rest of my armour. Even the sabutons do not need to be fluted just square toed.

[Jason Grimes]

Hey Karl,

That one is from The Cleveland Museum of Art. They just say that it is early 16th century, but I think I would date it to the end of the 1530's.

http://www.clevelandart.org/art/1916.16 ... ection:836

It would be interesting to know why they think that it might be Milanese?

[Konstantin the Red]

You can see some early burgs like this famous one here (1520)

The early burg gets the Diet of Worms.

It's even period-correct.

There. That ought to be unhelpful.

[Karl Helweg]

Hey Karl,

That one is from The Cleveland Museum of Art. They just say that it is early 16th century, but I think I would date it to the end of the 1530's.

http://www.clevelandart.org/art/1916.16 ... ection:836

It would be interesting to know why they think that it might be Milanese?

http://www.clevelandart.org/ Cleveland might have been the last place on the planet that I would have looked for Landsknecht armour.

[Lucian Ro]

I know we discussed the lack of kettle helms for a landsknecht, but I came across this on landsknecht.org with no info regarding it. Pretty interesting.

[InsaneIrish]

That thing looks UBER cool!

But, I am unsure of it's period Provinence. It really does look like a Mashup of 3 styles of helm. The tricomb Burg, a Close Helm, and Kettlehat.

[Urban]

http://www.bridgemanimages.com/en-GB/as ... nted-steel

Speaking of cool helms, would this circa 1500 closed sallet fit within then scope of Landsknechtism? And would such a helm be worn with a full harness or could the waffle brocket look be apropos?

[Jason Grimes]

I could see a Landsknecht wearing this, but limited to the upper ranks and with a full harness. The Landsknechts time frame spanned almost 100 years (mid 1480's to about the 1580's) so any armour from that period could have been worn. The only issue is that the armour type was severely restricted by social class and type of soldier. For instance you would not see a Spiesstragger wearing a full harness, it's just not practical. And on the other end of the spectrum you have full garnitures that could be reconfigured for everything from jousting to a lancer to a Spiesstragger.

This guy is a knight (there were lots and lots of knights at this time in the HRE) but he is outfitted with equipment for a Dopplesoldner.
download/file.php?id=55845

[InsaneIrish]

http://www.bridgemanimages.com/en-GB/as ... nted-steel

Speaking of cool helms, would this circa 1500 closed sallet fit within then scope of Landsknechtism? And would such a helm be worn with a full harness or could the waffle brocket look be apropos?

Pretty much everything that Mr. Grimes said.

But, to add, I am not sure that helm was designed for Battle. I am leaning towards that being some kind of Parade/dress helm. Not really made for practicality and use, but for looks add "effect".

Either way, it would certainly have been worn with full harness and not by itself, or really even with a partial harness.


What is a Waffle Brocket? Did you mean a Waffen Rock?

[Urban]

No, I meant a waffle brocket! Haha, yes, I was typing into my phone and didn't notice the autocorrect. So no dice on that helm. My eventual goal is to have a series of kits in a "Germany through the ages" fashion. Something Otto V Orlamundeish for the 14th, something cool for the 15th century, and then a bitchin' Landsknecht kit for the 16th century. This particular helm caught my eye, but I know there's a plethora of awesome helms from the period.

Many thanks.

[Henrik Granlid]

From this years Visby: The March of 100 Landsknechts
https://youtu.be/U2GLXXUjRjo

There were 170+ participants this year.

[Symon VanMoordrecht]

Can someone share pics of SCA heavy fighting Landsknecht kits, or pictures of bigger guys. Im putting together a new harness and I need a little inspiration. |

Thanks!

[Karl Helweg]

Can someone share pics of SCA heavy fighting Landsknecht kits, or pictures of bigger guys. Im putting together a new harness and I need a little inspiration. |

Thanks!

http://api.ning.com/files/bbgUyZ9t*tMhL ... or8208.jpg

I am pretty much the poster child for "bigger guy" doing Landsknecht.

[Henrik Granlid]

So, a question.

What manner of turn-of-the-century-gauntlets would be apropriate for an early Landsknecht in a sallet?

Milanese mega-mittens?
Elbow gauntlets with well-articulated wrists? (as expensive as they are cool)
German gothic gauntlets or fakefinger mittens?
Maximilian mittens?

Anything else that I've missed that's open season for the fashionable 1490's-1510's Sallet Wearer?

[Jason Grimes]

Hi Henrik,

What rank? For speisstragers and dopplesoldners you hardly ever see gauntlets being worn, although there are a few. If you are wearing splinted arms then you can use those laminated hand protections that extends off of the lower cannon. They mostly protect the back of the hand but do extend past the knuckles to give some protection for the fingers. For higher ranks they would have worn gauntlets that matched their armour. Light lancers appeared to have liked those elbow gauntlets. If you can get more specific it would help.

[Karl Helweg]

I cannot find any early Landsknechts wearing gauntlets (except for a few high ranking officers and their mounted guards) or for that matter sallets.

There was a slightly earlier, little known, but very influential military, the Hungarian Black Army which did wear sallets and gauntlets. The depictions on the Hungarian Black Army that I can find tend to show gauntlets with points on the cuffs behind the wrist but no other really unique features. The Hungarian Black Army seems to have preferred gun blued or blackened plate armour and a type of pavice shield.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Army_of_Hungary

These Hungarians developed a surprisingly modern military organization in a short time which seems to have significantly influenced the development of the Swiss pikemen and Landsknechts. The Black Army in turn was probably influenced by the Hussites.

The Hungarian Black Army probably deserves its own "I wanna be" thread. A recent new fighter here brought them to my attention.

[kyndalAg08]

I hate to make this my first post, as buried somewhere in the 12 or so pages of this thread is likely the answer I'm looking for, but have not found.

I'm currently working on an early to mid century landsknechten harness for SCA fighting(I know.....groan from the more detail oriented, but wait!). My plan is to pair it either with a sallet with articulated bevor, or a burgonet. I believe the burgonet to be the more period correct, as I have both a barred visor and a punched visor for it.

Winding down this long story... I'm missing a piece of my foot. I had a brown recluse take the heel almost completely off my left one about 10 years ago. I'm fully capable of standing and fighting, if anything I probably am better at keeping my weight forward than most(I'm also female....heels are a pain), but I need shoes that provide a better insole and ankle support than a cow mouth shoe.

Since I'm likely going to be display a 3/4 harness, I thought maybe tall boots might be better than trying to torture myself with cow mouth shoes.... but I'm not having much luck finding anything from the period. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Jason Grimes]

Hi, welcome to the archive.

Sorry to hear about your foot, those brown recluse's are nasty. Unfortunately I don't know of anyone who sells those kind of boots so you will most likely have to make them yourself. Also all of the shoes and boots from this time period didn't have heels, if that makes a difference. Although if you want, you can add a very low one and it will still looks fine.

A landsknecht light lancer would be a perfect fit for what you want to do and would be good for the early 16th century with a sallet. It was also one of Albrecht Durer's favorite subjects so I made a pinterest board with some of his images that depict light lancers.

https://www.pinterest.com/grimes0966/la ... t-lancers/

As you can see from the images that these boots were probably made from leather that were made very loose around the ankle and lower leg so you could get your foot into it. This loose part was then folded over and buckled or tied so it would be tight against the leg. The fold was started right at about where the pinky toe is and goes up to just below the knee. The boot tops could be either pulled up or left to drape around the ankle so I'm thinking that the leather (for the tops at least) was fairly thin. They probably let them down for comfort. The tops can reach over the knee which would have been good for wearing a 3/4's leg harness with. Also on the color images you can see that the interior of the boots were a different color than the outside. They were probably lined with some kind of cloth (linen?).

Converting these over to SCA use is going to be a bit of work, but you might be able to have some hidden armour under them? You could also add some armour toe caps, but I don't think that was done very much in period. Hope this helps.

[kyndalAg08]

Thank you for the photos. I think I can wear upper leg harnesses sans anything but a small demi greave and get away with the look.

I did find a couple of pairs of boots that might work, ren boot even has one with a modern sole on it that would be CLOSE, and probably keep my ankle and for supported for modern fighting.

As simple as that looks, I wonder if I could not use more modern boots(with correspondingly more modern in soles and arches that will support the bad foot and knee) and cover them.

I'm likely to just have to break down and wear modern "renny" style footwear to overcome the impairment(also have a bum knee), and just get some cow mouth shoes or make a pair of period boots when I wish to do displays.

[Laurence Robert]

Hey all, new to reenactment and decided on a Landsknecht kit for my first. I've got patterns, fabric, and a lot of plans, but in going through this thread I've found that a lot of the links to cobblers or info on appropriate shoes are dead. I've been doing some hunting on my own, and was wondering if anyone has had any experience with Pilgrim Shoes or Bohemond? I like both of their offerings, but would be interested in getting your take on things.

[Jason Grimes]

Of the two, I think I like Bohemond the best. At least their interpretation looks more like the originals. It would be nice to have some without the modern soles.

Edited to add: I'm not too sure about the patterns for the Landsknecht shoe, I don't think I have ever seen a woodcut or artwork of people wearing patterns. If someone knows of a artwork that does, please let us know.