I wanna be a LANDSKNECHT

[Sophia_K]

Many I wish I had patterns for those pants and jacket.

If you click on the white text in the picture, it will take you to a description page about each garment. At the bottom of the text description for each garment they have a link to a PDF file with line drawings of the pattern shapes for each garment. The links to them are in red text and say something like "Mönster till skjorta"

Here's a little translation
Hatt - Hat
Krage - Mail collar
Jacka - Jacket
Skjorta - Shirt
Bälte och svärd - Sword and knife
Hosar - Hosen
Strumpor - Socks
Skor - Shoes
Packning - Knapsack
Kappa - Cloak

[woodwose]

Dweezle you have one of the best Landsknecht outfit I have seen, you have the eye for historical detail, keep up the good work.

I will be displaying my coif and hat tomorrow at our crown tournement and will post pictures next week.

And incase you guys have not seen this yet take a look:

http://www.historiska.se/histvarld/drak ... /index.htm

thanks, it's improved a lot in the last couple years and people here on the archive have been a huge help and inspiration to try harder for authenticity. I think another part of what has improved my kit is really trying to wear and use it like real clothing, instead of just a costume that gets put on to dress up for a weekend event... I think that gaining an understanding the functionality of some aspects of this this sort of clothing can help to get the right look.. I want to write more about that, but I think it would end up being a very long and rambling post. There are a some things I know I need to change (points that are not made of nylon macrome cord, and give them some metal aglets is what comes to mind first) in my kit, and other things I want to try (full length hose like on the historiska.se site), but I still welcome any critique or whatever of my work as that will help to improve it in the future.

I hadn't seen the site you linked to. thanks for posting that. I also think the jacket with the hood is interesting. I'm sure I've seen jacket like things of similar shape in non-german fashion from this time... I might be thinking of something out of Herbert Norris (sp?) Tudor Fashions book or whatever it's called, which I know isn't the greatest interpretation of the fashions it deals with. The hood that ties down the top center reminds me somewhat of a hood on a spanish cloak/cape/mantle from later in the 16th or early 17th century thats mentioned in one of Janet Arnolds Patterns of Fashion books.
I'm definately making a coat of that style if I can find some good documentation.

as for the messer with the katzbalger style hilt... I'm no expert in weapons, but I'm pretty sure that the messer type of blade was very common in most of europe, especialy among the lower class. I've been looking at early 16th century art (paintings, drawings, prints, etc) trying to find details of different kinds of hilts that look similar to katzbalgers or messers... and there seem to be common trends between the two which leads me to believe that the S shaped guard, with varying amounts of curve, is simply a shape that was popular in germany at this time. I've noticed in some woodcuts and a couple of the Dolstien drawings that there are a few katzbalgers that look slightly curved - maybe just an artistic invention or mistake, or maybe not. I know somewhere -it might have been the messer section of the Durer illustrated fighting manual- I've seen messers with quillons that are curved on the ends in opposite directions, similar to a katzbalger, but only the ends of the long arms are bent - and some of Paul Dolstein's drawings show what look to be katzbalgers with their quillons bent out of the very tight S or double D sort of shape.

I've read that there were katzbalgers made for mostly cutting, that they had a blund or rounded tip, I've read other sources saying that they were short thrusting swords, others that they were chopping/stabbing sort of thing that you only would use if you've lost your primary weapon (pike, zwiehander, halberd, matchlock, etc...)... loose the katzbalger and it gets down to fighting with tooth and nail so it would have been a very dirty fight to kill with your backup weapon before you start fertilizing the ground with yourself. if a katzbalger is that sort of weapon, then I'd sort of consider a short messer to be a close and somewhat cheaper relative to it (assuming a single edged weapon would be generally easier to forge than double edged), and that what kind of hilt and blade you had might depend largely on a combination of personal preferance (concerning what combination of blade and hilt specifics you fealt most comfortable with as a backup weapon) and what you could afford. thats all just my own idea on these kinds of weapons... if anyone has links to museum images (or other discussions) of messers or katzbalgers I think they might be usefull for us to look at as our weapons have not been discussed much in this thread...

okay, so this ended up being a long rambling post anyways, full of half put together thoughts and bad spelling...

[Gottfried]

here is a picture of an orginal

gottfried

[InsaneIrish]

Ok new question, had anyone seen historical art that shows the style of jacket they made on the Swedish site:


Gerry Embleton has it drawn out in the latest Osprey book on landsknecht but I do not know its source. The split top held together with ties it’s interesting. It is a cool looking jacket and if I can find a historical image of it I would like to make one.

I was rumaging around looking for something else when I happened on this Urs Graf drawing. I believe it has your coat in it.

http://www.phil-fak.uni-duesseldorf.de/ ... /hompl.jpg

[Sophia_K]

I was rumaging around looking for something else when I happened on this Urs Graf drawing. I believe it has your coat in it.

http://www.phil-fak.uni-duesseldorf.de/ ... /hompl.jpg

Very similar style of coat to the Swedish site, but no ties on the collar to make it into ahood, unfortunatly.

If you left the ties off the collar and didn't want the hood, there are LOTS of documentable coats of this style, just not ties on the collar to convert it into a hood.

[InsaneIrish]

I disagree.

The only big difference between the illustration and the picture that I can see, is there is no slit down the center back of the collar and no ties. But there is a large hanging collar on each piece that could be put up over the head as a hood.

[Sophia_K]

While looking for something else, I ran across this and thought you guys might enjoy it. Its a full color, quite detailed picture, of an army encampment infront of a town. Usually when you find these they are woodcuts and in black and white.

I love how the tent supports are made out of branches, in one case a small tree has been bent over and that used. Straw is in the tents for mattresses and quite a few men's shirts are put over the top of the tents to dry. And there's quite the mix of clothing styles, from slash and puff landsknecht, to tunics and hosen, to Spanish influenced styles. The women's clothes are all quite sensible, all of them have aprons, heads covered, and one of them has her dress mostly undone.

From REALonline:
Zeltlager Kaiser Karls V. vor Lauingen im Jahre 1546;Stadtansicht von Lauingen

Dieses Bild: 015457

Kunstwerk: Malerei-Holz ; Tafelbild ; Gerung Matthias
Dokumentation: 1551 ; 1551 ; Lauingen ; Deutschland ; Schwaben ; Heimathaus
Anmerkungen: 100x200 ; ". . . wider Laster und Sünde" (Ausst.Kat.), Augsburg 1997, Nr. 97.

Full: http://tarvos.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server ... 016574.JPG

Details: http://tarvos.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server ... 016575.JPG
http://tarvos.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server ... 016576.JPG
http://tarvos.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server ... 016577.JPG
http://tarvos.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server ... 016578.JPG
http://tarvos.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server ... 016579.JPG
http://tarvos.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server ... 016580.JPG
http://tarvos.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server ... 016581.JPG
http://tarvos.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server ... 016582.JPG
http://tarvos.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server ... 016583.JPG

Enjoy!

[InsaneIrish]

Ok so tried to read thru this thread and for some reason page 4 won't load on my computer at work. However I'm interested in constructing something for Armour along these lines that would be SCA legal. So far I've not seen where this thread discusses that specifically other than some vague (to the newbie) references to hiding armor in the poofy parts of the garb? Am I missing something?

So, you want to fight as a Landsknecht in the SCA huh?

How much money do you have?

Actually it depends on what type of portrayal you are going for. The landsknecht went to war with as little in the way of armour as a bishops mantle and cevereler (skull cap) all the way up to a full set of maximillian plate.

Now, obviously the full suit is what EVERYONE wants and NO ONE can afford.

So, you need to define what rank of Landsknecht you want to portray.

Personally I cam going for a simple seargant rank or Dopple Soldier.

I am having a Burgeonette built.
I will have a fluted plackard
hidden elbows and vambraces
hidden/disguised cuisses and knees
16th century german mitten gauntlets
a bishops mantle

Other than the helm, mantle, plackard and gaunts everything else will be hidden.

I plan on hidding the legs under my cannons and over my hose.
I plan on hidding bazubands under the puffy sleeves of my shirt.

[Gottfried]

did anyone save the picutes form this site?
http://www.historiska.se/histvarld/drak ... /index.htm

it seams to be dead but I cant read swedish.

Gottfried

[Sophia_K]

did anyone save the picutes form this site?
http://www.historiska.se/histvarld/drak ... /index.htm

it seams to be dead but I cant read swedish.

Gottfried

I have the PDFs showing the pattern pieces for the garments, but not the pictures.

Which one were you looking for?

[Gottfried]

saved the PDF's as well but I had wanted to look at the pants agine to check somthing. thanks though

Gottfried

[Karl Helweg]

Since the Ebay auction is long since expired I am swapping for something that might have long term use for someone.

Holbein

Notice the contemporary boots, grilled helm, shield shape, and half-basket hilt sword. Ignore the undead in a karate uniform.

[DietrichUhl]

I have been looking at wood cuts and art. It seems that most of the shoes do not have a strap over the arch nor any real toe top cover. I was playing with some paper to pattern the shoe and it seems to me that the shoes where cheap leather hose foot bottoms. I think they would sew the shoes to their hose. Landsknechts where not knights, they where paid by the amour they had as well as their rank. They had to pay for all their supplies on campaign, so poor farm boys looking to make money would not have a lot for good well built shoes, especially if they where also outfitting their weapons and armor.

I think this is correct because of the lack of a top strap and lack of top covering of even the toes. Given that the people of the time where quite used to walking barefoot or with minimal foot covering. It makes sense that they would have cheap shoes that they could replace the leather base of their hose on long marches. Looking at the way my own shoes ware I have noticed a lot of ware to one side of the heel. So with a squared off toe box I could pull the seams holding the shoe to the hose and move them to the other foot as they wore down extending their life a wee bit more.

The Triumph of The Triumph of Maximillian has one image of camp followers shows a person carrying a pole of shoes. They are all the same size. What I found is that to fit the shoe all you need to do is make a good heel bucket in advance and then just cut and roll the front toe area back to the right size and cut off the excess.

They would be quick to make and quick to size down to almost any foot. A few minutes of trimming the leather and a few stitches and boom fresh hose base fitted to for you. Then you just cut off the old hose base and put the fresh one on.

I know there are a few examples of shoes crafted with more leather and more stitching but I don't think one would keep cheap leather hose foot bottoms.

What do you all think of this idea?
-Dietrich

[Karl Helweg]

http://cgi.ebay.com/SCA-garb-Landsknech ... dZViewItem

[Maximillian]

Kewl, I still interested in a pair or 2 in size 12. with black body and yellow slash color


Max

[InsaneIrish]

Darmour has replied to my questions:

1. He is discussing the option of WIDE widths, with his shoe maker.

2. Heel/ NO heel can be handled on a pair by pair basis at no extra charge.

3. Cutout/NO cutout can be handled on a pair by pair basis at no extra charge.

So, my tentative plan is this. I plan on setting up a paypal account and seperate email address for this order (if it all pans out). I will take money up front for the shoes you all want, then when they arrive here I will ship them out to you. I plan on offering a flat shipping charge per pair of shoes (discounted for multiple/bulk orders of course). That way I do not have to figure shipping for EVERY different order. EXAMPLE $5 for 1 pair, $2 per extra pair. So if you order 10 pair your shipping would be $23 or something like that.

I hope to have the review and pics up by the end of this week.

[InsaneIrish]

the Review is UP!

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=72731

[Karl Helweg]

http://cgi.ebay.de/Brustpanzer-Landskne ... dZViewItem

Buy it now is about $190. US. and might work for Faire or war armour.

I wear something similar and it has been working out really well as war armour:

[Nissan Maxima]

Would a Landsknecht officer be literate?
And on a seperate note, were mottos etc ever engraved on weapons?

I want to write in 16th century Burgundian the name of my Katzbalger in the fuller. Her name is," A woman who does for money what another may do for love."

If no one knows 16th century Burgundian I will certainly settle for modern german.

[Irishbull44]

I want to write in 16th century Burgundian the name of my Katzbalger in the fuller. Her name is," A woman who does for money what another may do for love."

If no one knows 16th century Burgundian I will certainly settle for modern german.

I have to tell you Nissan I like her name. For some reason that seems to fit some of my swords very well. Please let us know if you end up actually doing this and if you do please post a picture if you can and do not mind sharing.

Battle Honor,

Brogan.

[Rittmeister Frye]

If no one knows 16th century Burgundian I will certainly settle for modern german.

Send a PM to Chef de Chambre. Between he and his wife they certainly know sufficient late-15th Century Flemish to be able to come up with that one.

Cheers!

Gordon

[Karl Helweg]

My understanding is that Germans (HRE) were proud of their relatively high literacy. At least there was less stigma attached to literacy in the HRE. There was however Schriebers attached to the staff just in case.

By the early 16th century and the death of Charles the Bold the Burgundian Empire had pretty much disolved into just the Burgundian Duchy of France and most of the scattered holdings sort of going as at least an electoral dowry when Maxilmillian married his daughter. Some of the former Burgundian Empire was as far away as Saxony but they probably thought less of themselves as Burgundians. Still the closest thing to a Landsknecht uniform (or at least badge) was the Burgundian saltire cross specifically passed on to Maximillian from Charles so in a sence all Landsknechts were associated with the old Burgundian Empire.

Sorry, but my German is much to limited to fully translate your sword's name. Yes, it seems appropriate to name it. The shortened name would be the wards of the Hurenweibel.

http://www.st-max.org/images-edu.htm

[DietrichUhl]

My understanding is that Germans (HRE) were proud of their relatively high literacy. At least there was less stigma attached to literacy in the HRE. There was however Schriebers attached to the staff just in case.

By the early 16th century and the death of Charles the Bold the Burgundian Empire had pretty much disolved into just the Burgundian Duchy of France and most of the scattered holdings sort of going as at least an electoral dowry when Maxilmillian married his daughter. Some of the former Burgundian Empire was as far away as Saxony but they probably thought less of themselves as Burgundians. Still the closest thing to a Landsknecht uniform (or at least badge) was the Burgundian saltire cross specifically passed on to Maximillian from Charles so in a sence all Landsknechts were associated with the old Burgundian Empire.

Sorry, but my German is much to limited to fully translate your sword's name. Yes, it seems appropriate to name it. The shortened name would be the wards of the Hurenweibel.

http://www.st-max.org/images-edu.htm

The development of many little princedoms and numerous towns all having to do commerce over a distance as well as communicate to form confederacies of defense required a great deal of literacy between people. Towns where for the greater part controlled by the merchant class so literacy was both valued and needed. Given all this I am confident that most officers would have some level of literacy. Imperial or High German was basically the new Latin, it was the agreed way of communicating across distances and dialects across the Holy Roman Empire.

-Dietrich

[Karl Helweg]

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=75032

[Marks]

Well, I am a german (with a lot of difficulties in your language). May i help?

[Karl Helweg]

Welcome Marks!

My request is that you post any unpublished Landsknecht artwork here such as church frescoes or effigies showing the armour.

Are you in the SCA or a re-enactor?

[Marks]

Thanks,
I´m doing landsknecht-reeanactment, but i´ve learnt armouring in the late 90ies from a SCAdian, so I had a little contact with SCA (contact is the right word).
Just wanted to help with the the translation for the engraved inscription on the katzbalger of Nissan Maxima.
If you need pictures of artwork showing armour, please tell me an exact type and time, then give me a little time, i´ll try to find something. But you will have bad chances if you are looking for a footsoldier´s armour on effigies. Those who were noble and wealthy enough to have an effigie, wanted to have a picture of themselfes in the knightly tradition. So they chose to show a knight´s armour.

[Gottfried]

" A woman who does for money what another may do for love."

If no one knows 16th century Burgundian I will certainly settle for modern german.

Eine Frau die für Geld tut, was eine ander für Liebe macht.

Would be the modern German sorry I don't know any Burgundian.

About the literacy all Landsknecht officers had to be able to write and we know that at least by the 30 years war that the common Landsknecht could write because we have a journal from one.

Marks where in Germany are you I am in Bayern to be specific Oberfanken, Bamber - Lichtenfels area.
If you’re interested in the SCA I'm about the only Landsknecht in continental Europe the next ones are in Sweden.
What group are you currently in? Just wondering if I know anyone from your group.

Gottfried

[Karl Helweg]

If you happen to find an effigy of an Obrist or just other contemporary armour. I am trying to find more details on shoes, pauldrons, arms, helms, sleeves, and gauntlets right now.

I was stationed near Vellberg about 1990. There are Landsknechts painted on the walls of the little chapel there that I never managed to take a good picture of. Any period art would be wonderful.

Do you have pictures of your Landsknecht group and your gear?

Gottfried I was pretty much the only Landsknecht in central Drachenwald when I was there (except occasionally Vis. Axel) which alwasy seemed a little strange to me. Now there are not many more of us in Oertha.

[chef de chambre]

Uhhh....

There are no 16th century "Burgundians" as a people with a separate language. The Ancient kingdom of Burgundy disappeared forever during the time of the Merovingian Franks.

Medieval people from Burgundy - County, or Duchy of, spoke French (although the Franche Comte is French speaking, the HRE was not based oin language, but who owed fealty to the Emperor).

Burgundians, from the early Middle Ages to the modern era, are culturally, and linguistically FRENCH.

Now, people confuse Valois Burgundy as only consisting of the two Burgundies, when in fact, the most important provinces were in the Low Countries, and most of these spoke Flemish (Dutch), although some spoke French (Hainault - which again, was Imperial - not French, although the people of Hainault spoke French.)

Valois Burgundy consisted of a NUMBER of different Duchies, counties, and lordships, and not all people of Valois Burgundy were "Burgundians", in the sense of being from the two Burgundies - in point of fact, only a fraction of the population were represented by the County and Duchy of Burgundy.

In the 16th century, NEITHER the County, nor the Duchy of Burgundy weere a part of the Burgundian inheritance of Maximillian of Austria, Holy Roman EMperor - both had been invaded, and conquered by Louis XI of France, after the death of Charles the Bold, and from that time to this day are politically French, as well as being linguistically, and culturally French.

I hope this clears up a misconception that is painful to the point of causing me a migraine.

[Marks]

Tanks, chef de chambre. I just wanted to wait on Nissan maxima´s answer to my offer (didn´want to be to smart on my first post in the forum). By the way, there are a few differences in Flemish (roughly a dialect of D.) and Dutch (unimportand for the discussion here).

@Gottfried and Karl: I live 40 miles north of Stuttgart. Unfortunately i don´t have the time for both SCA and the historic sword-fighting stuff. But perhaps i´m near Bamberg this spring. My group is http://www.jaekleins-spiesse.de/. At least a few of the members TRY to be a little bit closer to the originals. Perhaps you were on the "Landsknecht-Hurra"-event last spring?

[Karl Helweg]

Marks that is a fun looking unit. Which one is you?

When I was living in Germany (in a little village of Doettingen north of Schwaebisch Hall) there were not many Landsknecht reenactors. Vellberg had about a dozen and the Bremen Landsknechts had maybe 20 members were too far away to see them very often. I would have loved to have had a Ladnsknecht guard.

Now I live in Juneau, Alaska. The only other Landsknecht reenactor up here seems to be Jason Grimes up in Fairbanks. We are about as far away as you are in Germany to Sweden. We would even have to ride the same kind of ferry to travel. Alaska is a BIG place.

[Nissan Maxima]

Karl, Thats a nice almain. Where'd you come by that?

[Karl Helweg]

Nissan Maxima I don't think almain means the same to both of us. I'll try and start from top to bottom and hope that I answer your question:

The helm was a trade-in at my old shop. Chivalry Sports (?) That I polished, drilled ear holes, etc... to make look slightly more correct. (I need a better sturmburgonet)

The gorget was from Mtr. Geoffrey. I happened to notice that this mislabled one on Ebay would be nice too: http://cgi.ebay.com/13th-C-MEDIEVAL-GOR ... dZViewItem

I made the pauldrons and ailettes/rondels which were not very common until the second half of the 16th century but obviously work pretty well for guarding my armpits. I should add roped gussets to the breastplate.

I have new wrap elbows but haven't had a chance to take pictures of them or refitted gorget or shoes or reflaired waist.

The center breastplate was made by BokalosArmoury.com for kendo but (long story) I added a roped top, fauld, and tassets. I still have the patterns fro those parts somewhere here. I used leather articulation and countersunk flush rivets like the armour in Schloss Langenburg (which had fake rivets). I don't have a backplate just kidney wraps with Burgundian crosses cut out to breath a little better. Thinking about cutting those same crosses out of the lower taset "knees." The real SCA knees are hidden under the lederhosen.

The best part right now is it all fits in one big bag to fly and weighs about 38#. Hard to fly with spears and halberds though.

Maeryk this was out wedding pas d'Armes and not an official SCA event. Sir Gotfried promised to marshal, decided to fight, delegated marshalling to his squires. We invited ALL of our reenactor friends so....

[Nissan Maxima]

Landsknecht vs. Zombie