I wanna be a LANDSKNECHT

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Thu Aug 25, 2005 12:05 pm

SUCCESS!!!

I am not possitive this is the one I remember seeing, but it certainly looks like the one.

It is from "The Triumph of Maximillian"

Jason Grimes · Post by **Jason Grimes** » Sat Aug 27, 2005 5:14 pm

Just a word of caution, "Triumph" was a propaganda piece that Maximillian had made, and if I remember correctly depicts his second marrage. Even though the work was done in 1516 the events portrayed are from 1494 when he married Bianca Maria Sforza the niece of duke Ludovico Moro of Milan. What is shown are the many segments of society, not just Landsknechts. I don't have a copy of the "Triumph" so I don't know exactly what these guys represet in the parade. I have yet to see a woodcut depicting Landsknecht battles that show shields being used. That does not mean that they didn't though.

woodwose · Post by **woodwose** » Tue Aug 30, 2005 7:39 pm

Dante della Luna, the hat was made by me. Its fairly simple to make and based as well as I could on a way I thought some hats I'd seen in woodcuts may have been made. The top is a large square (maybe about twice as large as the finished top) with the corners folded into the center (on the side where the head hole would go), the head hole was drawn out, then I sewed the edges up to the head hole.. then turn it right side out and turn/fold the newly made corners up to the top and sew the corners together in the center. its a lot of layers of wool ontop of my head, but it keeps the rain and sun off really well. The brim is four pieces, 2 per side of the brim, and tacked together on one side so they overlap. that picture is kind of old and the hat is a little different now... I should have put thin leather or something in the brim because it was way too floppy.. now I've settled for some thin stainless steel cable that I threaded in through the edge of the brim, and it now has feathers all the way around instead of just in the front.

I don't think I have newer pictures of that hat with its improvements online yet, but I should sometime in the next few weeks.

Mattmaus, it may sound strange, but I was camping earlier this week and remembered your post about pictures of layers of clothing.. so I asked a friend to take pictures of me getting dressed. they came out a little dark and there are people with better recreations than my clothing, but I'll scan and upload them to my site if people are interested.

I also finished a new skirted-doublet-vest-thing earlier this summer. the pictures I have of it on my site are fairly huge so I don't want to post them here... but its sort of my interpretation of something I really liked out of one of the osprey landsknecht books - anyways, here's a page with some pictures of it: http://mailmaker.tripod.com/garb/bases.html ....and also of a hat similar to my other one but with a narrower brim.

that woodcut with the shields is neat... not too often that you see messers depicted in woodcuts either.

woodwose · Post by **woodwose** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 7:09 pm

okay, I was bored and decided to scan and upload the pictures I mentioned in my last post.

here's where they are:
http://mailmaker.tripod.com/garb/dressing/index.html
I'd love to hear any critisism, comments, opinions, suggestions, answer questions, or whatever about my stuff; and hope these are interesting or usefull to someone. I hope to get better pictures sometime.

Jason Grimes · Post by **Jason Grimes** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 2:55 pm

That looks great Dweezle!! I wish my outfit was 1/10th as good as yours.

My only question is why do you have the legs of your ubberhosen detach? Got any close-ups of your shoes?

Maeryk · Post by **Maeryk** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 8:01 am

I went back through my Durer books this weekend, (as I now have them unpacked YAY) as well as all my military painting/gun history books, and I can honestly say NOT ONCE do I see a shield in evidence in any painting of a battle, or any representation of troops that is _NOT_ either A) very specifically jousting related, B) an altarpiece commissioned by Max, or C) The Triumph.

Look at the Passions, etc.. no shields anywhere.. LOTS of polearms.. no shields.

Maeryk

Alecks · Post by **Alecks** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 8:58 am

I can't remember where the picture is from (I'll try to look it up) but there is a picture of a battlescene depicting landsknechts with shields. The first time I saw it even was on this archive, I believe.

Conrad the Mad · Post by **Conrad the Mad** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:45 am

anyone know of any black and white harness patterns?

Karl Helweg · Post by **Karl Helweg** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 5:21 pm

Do you mean the distinct black and white armour worn by the German Reiter (aka pistoloteers, black coats, black devils, pistoleers, etc....) that appeared about 1540? The Osprey Essential Histories #47 "The French Religious Wars 1562-1598" has a bit on them. They seem to have about a 2 Reiter to 1 Landsknecht exchange rate in battles.

Actually, does anyone else recommend any books about these troops?

Alecks · Post by **Alecks** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 5:14 pm

/me Points Magnus_Fenrisson in the direction of Kass. She might be able to tell you more, you might want to send her a PM.

Oh, I still don't know where i've got the picture I've posted before from. Sorry...

woodwose · Post by **woodwose** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 1:52 pm

Jason Grimes wrote:That looks great Dweezle!! I wish my outfit was 1/10th as good as yours. My only question is why do you have the legs of your ubberhosen detach? Got any close-ups of your shoes?

hey, thanks. sorry, no close-ups of the shoes right now, but they are just an old pair of birkenstock "londons".

there are a bunch of reasons I made the legs of the hose detach. in several works depicting landsknecht I'd seen hosen with what seemed to have legs that detached somewhere around that area of the leg. here are a few images I scanned from the osprey "Landsknecht soldier" book...

http://mailmaker.tripod.com/garb/hosrefa.jpg
http://mailmaker.tripod.com/garb/hosrefb.jpg
http://mailmaker.tripod.com/garb/hosrefc.jpg

of the hose visable in the first picture, I interpreted both guys on foot to be wearing the same type of hose - the guy on the left has the outer layer of his lowered to around the knee, the guy on the right has his hose still pointed together. for the guy on the left, I thought it looked like two layers because the hosen on his thigh has seams or stripes while the hose on his calf does not.

the next picture... the guy on the right who's hosen are in pretty bad looking shape. looks like a similar arangement, but he left the string/lacing very loosely in place on one leg.

last picture... similar thing again, both legs detached below crotch level, lowered to above the knee, and held up around the top of the calf by scarfs or garters. I've found that if I let the legs of my hosen just fall down to my knees then the top half of the legs will want to invert so the top edges of the leg openings end up near my ankles... same if I just roll them down. best way I've found to lower them and keep them looking all frilly looking around the knees is to roll/turn/fold them down so the top is going to the inside rather than outside... I'm not sure if thats a good explanation or not.

those are all just my own interpretations of what I've been looking at in art, I'm open to other ideas of whats going on with clothing of this sort because I want to try out other possibilities. I think exploring different aspects of the functionality of clothing an important step after trying to recreate something or understand why something was done.

other reasons for detachable hosen legs... this was the first pair of hosen (or pants of any sort) I'd made and I thought having them split like this would be somewhat easier to make.

with detachable legs its easier to sort of mix and match parts, and to replace parts if for some reason they start to look like that guy in the second picture, which is good since I currently have only one set of the trunk hose, a pair of legs, one odd leg, and a pair of netherstocks (or whatever my shorter grey hose would be called)

my favorite reason though is that I can unpoint and lower the hose if its hot, and if its really hot I can unpoint and lower the inner layer of linen as well, which I've been really greatful for... we've marched off into the woods on weekend camping trips several times in varying degrees of period clothing and have found that its very nice to be able to go from wearing wool pants to short-shorts just by untying a few points on my hosen, especialy during the summer.

I've been waiting to reply to this until we got another roll of film developed. my girlfriend took a bunch of pictures of my clothing worn in various states of undress for warmer weather... layers of hosen being unpointed and lowered, doublet taken off but still pointed to the hosen around the waist, etc... I wanted to post them with this post and the three pictures I posted above, but I'll scan and post them whenever we get the film developed.

Ehrenfried · Post by **Ehrenfried** » Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:12 pm

Karl Helweg wrote:Do you mean the distinct black and white armour worn by the German Reiter (aka pistoloteers, black coats, black devils, pistoleers, etc....) that appeared about 1540? The Osprey Essential Histories #47 "The French Religious Wars 1562-1598" has a bit on them. They seem to have about a 2 Reiter to 1 Landsknecht exchange rate in battles.

Actually, does anyone else recommend any books about these troops?

I have not seen much on this armor. What was the significance of the black and white? Is it just supposed to look cool or is there some reason to be in black and white armor? What's the proper time frame?

Greywind · Post by **Greywind** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 9:58 am

It was thought that painting steel would prevent rust. German smiths of this time combined this theory with aesthetic appeal and made an armour that not only was pleasing to the eye, but supposedly rust resistant as well.

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:50 am

Found this LH Landsknect site with some really great Hi-Rez images of woodcuts.

http://www.landsknecht.org/

Go to Galarie then go all the way down to Trasnitt.

Maximillian · Post by **Maximillian** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 1:56 am

Here is a link if your interested on getting Landsknecht Garb patterns, I bought the RH502, RH503 and RH505.

http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/german/index.html

Max

Karl Helweg · Post by **Karl Helweg** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 5:57 pm

Has anyone tried this pattern for armour?

*So how many well dressed Landsknechts plan to make Gulf Wars this year?

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 6:07 pm

Alecks wrote:I can't remember where the picture is from (I'll try to look it up) but there is a picture of a battlescene depicting landsknechts with shields. The first time I saw it even was on this archive, I believe.

I believe this is a Victorian painting not one from the 16th century.

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:15 pm

Two points to address to Karl, to rectify a misaprehension on his part.

1. Landesknechts could and did wear black and white harness, at least from the middle of the 16th century when the fashion arose. The bulk of black and white harnesses exant are oin point of fact foot harnesses, and not reiter harnesses. Landesknechts appear in German armies until the end of the 16th century, so making sweeping statements regarding their fashion is a recipie for disaster.

2. Reiters could and did wear, (and likely most commonly did) black harness - black and white harness was not somehow their sole proprietership. The bulk of surviving reiter haress are black (that is, all black), although there are black and white reiter harness. Reiter harness could even be polished harness - their was no club rule saying they had to wear black harness.

Relying on Osprey to give more than a cursory examination of a subject - especially concerning as complex a topic as arms and armour is not a wise idea. Osprey books are primarily intended as an introduction and painting guide to wargamers.

Steve_A · Post by **Steve_A** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:22 pm

Dweezle,

Just for the record, the image that You have at the bottom of the page on Your website http://mailmaker.tripod.com/garb/bases.html that shows the illustration of the group of men is purportedly not a 16th century drawing.

In the Ospey book "The Conquistadores", the author Terence wise writes that The series of illustrations that are signed A.H., A. Hoffmann. Munchen, or Anton Hoffmann. Munchen are from the 20th century and were published in 1918.

The abovesaid illustration on page 23 happens to have this signature on it as do pages 21 and 22 of "The Landsknechts". For whatever it is worth, I thought that I would bring this to Your attention.

Does anyone have any more info on the illustrator Anton Hoffmann? I like his style of artwork and after a Googlesearch came up with zip. Any info would be appreciated.

Karl Helweg · Post by **Karl Helweg** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:51 pm

chef - As the saying goes: "I'm from Missouri." In other words, can you please show your proof of a Landsknecht clearly wearing black&white armor? I'd be happy just to see a wood cut of armor (on a Landsknecht) that clearly depicts the raised center and trim sections associated with black&white. I might even make a set.

It may be impossible to prove that a Landsknecht never wore random aquired armor but it would be as unlikely as an Army Green Beret wearing Marine digicam which they could easily buy.

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Fri Dec 23, 2005 2:32 pm

Karl Helweg wrote:chef - As the saying goes: "I'm from Missouri." In other words, can you please show your proof of a Landsknecht clearly wearing black&white armor? I'd be happy just to see a wood cut of armor (on a Landsknecht) that clearly depicts the raised center and trim sections associated with black&white. I might even make a set.

It may be impossible to prove that a Landsknecht never wore random aquired armor but it would be as unlikely as an Army Green Beret wearing Marine digicam which they could easily buy.

Karl,

One does not need to rely on pictures if one can read Deutsch. Yes, they exist, but I am not going to take the trouble to track them down for you - 16th century armies are not my main area of interest, and I don;t have the same resources to hand for that era that I keep to hand for my principle area of study. In an example off the top of my head, however, one can look to the Styrian State archives and sees that thousands of armoures are issued to Landesknecht from the Styrian state arsenal, and that hundreds of armours, both black, and black and white are bought for the purpose. I won't bother to point out the Black Legion, which helped to sack Rome, besides, their black harness predates the black and white fashion.

You seem to have a misaprehension regarding the structure and provision of weapons to armies in the 16th century - a time when armies are increasingly supllied from a central authority - and going on an assumption largely based on medival practise. One must note that the practise of creating state run arsenals began in the late middle ages, however.

Do you know how Landesknecht regiments were raised, and maintained? Do you know about Landesknecht post the Italian Wars? I ask because most of your assumptions seem centered pre 1530.

Rittmeister Frye · Post by **Rittmeister Frye** » Fri Dec 23, 2005 3:09 pm

Admittedly Swiss, rather than Landsknechte per se, and modern museum display rather than original art, so all of the caveats are in place, but here is a nice shot of the display at the Swiss National Museum in Zurich. They're known for being in general pretty spot-on. I am led to believe that the armours are original, though I can't state that unequivocally.

Further, all of the armours shown in "I want to be a Schwartzreiter" which have an armoured codpiece (AKA Brayette, as I recall) would be foot armours, actually.

Cheers!

Gordon

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 3:18 pm

QUESTION:

From another thread. Info on Landsknect Flags and their use please.

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=54290

woodwose · Post by **woodwose** » Sun Jan 08, 2006 2:29 am

Steve_A wrote:Dweezle,

Just for the record, the image that You have at the bottom of the page on Your website http://mailmaker.tripod.com/garb/bases.html that shows the illustration of the group of men is purportedly not a 16th century drawing.

In the Ospey book "The Conquistadores", the author Terence wise writes that The series of illustrations that are signed A.H., A. Hoffmann. Munchen, or Anton Hoffmann. Munchen are from the 20th century and were published in 1918.

The abovesaid illustration on page 23 happens to have this signature on it as do pages 21 and 22 of "The Landsknechts". For whatever it is worth, I thought that I would bring this to Your attention.

Does anyone have any more info on the illustrator Anton Hoffmann? I like his style of artwork and after a Googlesearch came up with zip. Any info would be appreciated.

thanks for that information, I'll make note of that on my site next time I'm updating stuff. I thought the style of drawing looked a bit odd... it has a boldness of lines that reminds me of woodcuts but it seems to be a drawing and all other drawings I've seen from the period have much finer lines. I googled "anton Hoffmann" and the other associated names and sifted through a lot of crap only to find one post-impressionist sort of painting of some soldiers marching alongside a tank, and another rather plain looking painting of an interior of a house or something but dont remember where I found them. I seem to remember a site saying he was dutch, but not much else other than early 1900's

Uadahlrich · Post by **Uadahlrich** » Fri Jan 13, 2006 9:13 am

Guten Tag
I have been trying to get a more authentic Landesknecht kit together but am cursed with foot problems. I've been using some re-worked hushpuppies converted into latchet shoes and some turn shoes that I can get my insoles into. Then I found this link:

http://www.kovex-ars.cz/indexe.html

where they have these shoes. (I'm trying to attach the picture) #BO007
on this page:

http://www.kovex-ars.cz/armoury/ekuze.html

I was wondering if anyone had any experience/comments about dealing with this company. They have some Katzbalgers too. Never have been able to find one when I have the money available.

Forkbeard · Post by **Forkbeard** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 5:08 pm

To keep this thread going, I just want to say that I ordered the Waffenrok pattern from Kass yesterday. (http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/pa ... enrok.html) I'll update this thread again and give you my feedback and let you know how it's going. I'm a relative novice sewer but guess (correctly according to Kass) that this is the easiest pattern to work work.

Ulfr

rameymj wrote:Has anyone tried the Reconstructing History patterns? Specifically the 16th cen German Wams & Hosen
http://reconstructinghistory.com/patter ... hosen.html

and Waffenrok
http://reconstructinghistory.com/patter ... enrok.html

Any feedback good, bad, or difficult? Are they sized correctly? Do the slashed parts run with the grain or the bias?

Most importantly, did you like the resulting clothes?

MJRamey

Rittmeister Frye · Post by **Rittmeister Frye** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 12:08 am

Just to keep you all amused, here's a pic of me from 1984 in one of the earliest reproduction waffenrocks thrown together (at least in that half of the century), with a nice little Italian-style corselet that is totally wrong for the period. Only about 50 years off. Oh well, we had fun discovering things in those halcyon days!

Allons!

Gordon

Gyszel · Post by **Gyszel** » Fri Mar 03, 2006 2:07 pm

For those who asked,

I have actually put together the patterns from Reconstructing History, and I found them to be very very good! The hosen will require many fittings to get them right, don't be fooled. But this would happen with any hosen, so its not the pattern's fault.
Just a tip though: Remember to cut out your pattern pieces, then slash them, then sew them together. It's easier that way to not cut through your seams.

I haven't tried any of the accessories patterns yet, but those are next on my list.

Gyszel

Forkbeard · Post by **Forkbeard** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 12:47 pm

Sorry this has taken so long but I wanted to say I also received my pattern from Kass (long ago) and the package is outstanding. Very well made pattern, all the documentation, etc. Great stuff.

Will post more when I've started the garment.

Ulfr

LordDraco3 · Post by **LordDraco3** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 7:52 pm

I have been directed to this topic for my persona...I used the term dopplesoldner and was told it was landsknecht.

So do all Landsknechts wear the loud frilly clothes? When I had my persona I figured I would be able to wear lots of armor to cover up clothes...Though I may change my mind after finding out what kind of people two-handed sword wielders really looked like >_< (No offense to the I used the term dopplesoldner and was told it was landsknechts, it's just not my personal style).

Rittmeister Frye · Post by **Rittmeister Frye** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 9:28 pm

Draco;

A "DopplesÃƒÂ¶ldner" was indeed a Landsknecht, not the usual pikeman but rather a "double-pay" man who would weild either a zweihander schwert or a halbard. According to my research, there were generally only 8 of them in a regiment, protecting the FÃƒÂ¤hndrich (Ensign), though early on it is entirely possible that they were more common. In any event, they earned their pay, being heavily armoured and expected to go toe-to toe with similary armed men as needed.

Per the clothing, in the first several decades of the 16th Century the Landsknecht were indeed quite flamboyant in their attire, what with slashing and puffing everything in a very individualist style, shocking the establishment. Even at the end of the 16th Century, their clothing was fairly outrageous, but not with quite as high a shock-value as their forbearers had worn in the early years of that century.

Allons!

Gordon

Gerhard von Liebau · Post by **Gerhard von Liebau** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 10:53 pm

Found some images on a German gallery site... Was wondering when these illustrations were drawn? Assuming they aren't contemporary, can anyone point any of the major inaccuracies out to me? Some of the stuff looks pretty neat and unique among depictions I've seen.

Thanks!

-Gregory-

Jason Grimes · Post by **Jason Grimes** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 1:37 am

Hi Gregory,

Those were done in the 19th century, but were mostly copied from period woodcuts. For the most part they are ok, just not so good on the details. I would not put too much trust in the colors they choose. You would have to give us some specifics so we could point out the inaccuracies there are, if any.

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 11:28 am

Rittmeister Frye wrote:... According to my research, there were generally only 8 of them in a regiment, protecting the FÃƒÂ¤hndrich (Ensign), ...

Can you point me in the direction of where you saw this?

I was under the impression that the Dopple Soldner were more front line fighters dispersed between the pikemen on the front line hacking and breaking pike points of the other side. The reason they received there double pay (and the monicar Dopple soldier) was because of their dangerous job and being more heavily armoured than the average landsknect Pikemen. Although it would make since to surround the Ensign with Dopple soldiers as well given the importance and source of pride their Fahlien banners were.

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 11:32 am

Jason Grimes wrote:Hi Gregory,

Those were done in the 19th century, but were mostly copied from period woodcuts. For the most part they are ok, just not so good on the details. I would not put too much trust in the colors they choose. You would have to give us some specifics so we could point out the inaccuracies there are, if any.

I'd have to agree with Jason here. Not sure about their color choices. And I have never seen the Katzbalger hung from the side or back, always in the front more like a Sax.

Not to sure about the big coat/cloak either in the second picture.

I wanna be a LANDSKNECHT

Reiter?

Re: Reiter?

leder rustung?

evidence?

Re: evidence?

Landsknecht footwear

Re: Reconstructing History Patterns