I wanna be a LANDSKNECHT

[Rittmeister Frye]

... According to my research, there were generally only 8 of them in a regiment, protecting the Fähndrich (Ensign), ...

Can you point me in the direction of where you saw this?

I'm going mostly from later-16th Century manuals such as Robert Barret, Thomas Diggs, William Garrard and Sir John Smythe. As memory serves, they all are recommending keeping the "short weapons" (halberds) to the Ensigns Guard. Of course by then there was a much higher proportion of Shotte to Pike as well, even in Continental armies, so the need for such weapons was somewhat reduced.

This being said, it is entirely possible that the German and Swiss regiments of the earlier part of the century had a much higher proportion of Double Pay men in their ranks armed with "short weapons" (zweihanders and halberds). I'll have to bug Matthew Kelty on that, he's far better read than I am on the earlier treatises on the Art Militarie. He showed me a rather nifty painting of the defense of Castel San Angelo during the "Sacco da Roma" of 1527, with Swiss with zweihanders are using them rather as crowbars against the German Pikes. Pretty nifty.

(BTW, the Spaniards, or more properly the Aragonese very early in the Italian Wars had hordes of targeteers and pole-axe men in addition to pikes and arquebuses, but it was discovered that while they were quite effective against other Infantry, their vulnerability to French Heavy Horse was a liability.)

Allons!

Gordon

[Jason Grimes]

Hey Gordon,

At least in the eary 16th century, as far as I have studied, dopplesoldner were simply veteran soldiers who had a lot of experience and who would keep the new recuits in line and help train them. I have seen woodcuts of dopplesoldners using any number of weapons including guns, pikes, zweihanders, and halbards. Really the only limit to the number of dopplesoldner at this time was cost. The number of soldiers and thier type was specified in the muster orders. The orders were passed down to the captains so they knew what they could recuite for. If you are talking about Trabanten or guards for higher ranking officers, then almost invariably they would carry a halbard. Dopplesoldner were usually the higher ranking men from society as well, like lower order German knights, etc. The real famous woodcut that depicts a dopplesoldner with a zwiehander across his shoulder and is wearing three quarter armour is depicting one of these knights. The text that was printed with it tells the story.

*darn* I have the translation of the text at home, I will post it tonight. Sorry.

[InsaneIrish]

I'm going mostly from later-16th Century manuals such as Robert Barret, Thomas Diggs, William Garrard and Sir John Smythe. As memory serves, they all are recommending keeping the "short weapons" (halberds) to the Ensigns Guard. Of course by then there was a much higher proportion of Shotte to Pike as well, even in Continental armies, so the need for such weapons was somewhat reduced.

After I posted I went to your website. I then realized that you were probably refering to late 16th century warfare and Landsknect. And you are completely correct in that. Of course by then the Ensign position was usually filled by a young inexperienced boy (or cannon fodder) that could easily be replaced if killed. During the early part of the century the Ensign was a rallying point for the Fahlien and a good one could swing a battle for his fahlien by his charisma. But like you said the emplimentation of guns on a major scale changed the way they fought drastically.

[Rittmeister Frye]

After I posted I went to your website. I then realized that you were probably refering to late 16th century warfare and Landsknect. And you are completely correct in that. Of course by then the Ensign position was usually filled by a young inexperienced boy (or cannon fodder) that could easily be replaced if killed. During the early part of the century the Ensign was a rallying point for the Fahlien and a good one could swing a battle for his fahlien by his charisma. But like you said the emplimentation of guns on a major scale changed the way they fought drastically.

True enough on all counts! It's been too long since I read up on early 16th Century Landsknechten, and that was almost completely secondary source stuff anyway, probably chock full of romantic notions of what was going on, or otherwise skewed in it's interperetation, so I've pretty much chucked most of it out of my brain (or tried to). I am amazed at the increase in information that's come about in the last 20-30 years on all of the subjects ventured upon in this forum: this stuff used to be a howling wilderness of ignorance! It's GREAT to see intelligent discussions of rather obscure details of things long past. How cool is that?

Allons!

Gordon

[Jason Grimes]

Ok, here is a link to the picture I was talking about:

http://www.grimmarmoury.com/images/dopple1.jpg

And here is the text that goes with it:

Paul Guterding

Ich bin vom Adel hochgeborn
Füht auch mit ehren Messing sporn
Noch bleib ich ben frommen Landskenchtn
Hilff die gerechtigkeit verfechten
Vornen am spitz da wil ich stan
Als ein from redlich Edelman
Im Krieg hab ich mein Ritterschafft bewert
Ein redlich Landscknecht ist ehren werdt.

And the translation:

Paul Guterding (This is the name of the landsknecht depicted)

>Ich bin vom Adel hochgeborn
I was high born of the noble class

>Füht auch mit ehren Messing sporn
Fitted (?) with brass spurs of honor

>Noch bleib ich ben frommen Landskenchtn
Yet now I dwell with pious Landsknechts

>Hilff die gerechtigkeit verfechten
Helping to defend justice

>Vornen am spitz da wil ich stan
At the head of the point (pike?) there will I stand

>Als ein from redlich Edelman
As a pious honest nobleman

>Im Krieg hab ich mein Ritterschafft bewert
In war have I valued my knighthood

>Ein redlich Landscknecht ist ehren werdt.
An honest landsknecht will become an honor.

This was really a propaganda piece, Erhard Schoen the artist that did this made many of these types of recruitment woodcuts.

[woodwose]

And I have never seen the Katzbalger hung from the side or back, always in the front more like a Sax.

thats what I'd always thought too, but it tends to get in the way sometimes. the way their sword belts/sashes seem to fit (too me) makes them easy to shift so the sword hangs at the side, back, or front. most depictions of landsknect just sort of standing or posing have the katzbalgrs at the front (where they are visable and identify them as landsknecht and not swiss rivals?). when they are actually doing something active (marching, fighting, loading a gun, etc.) they seem to be shown more on the back or side like shown in the color images above. I noticed that after I started to move my sword to my back when loading my crossbow. if you can lay your eyes on the osprey Landsknect soldier book then take a look at some of the drawings from Paul Dolstein's illustrated journal, and other woodcuts, paintings, and drawings also often show the katzbalger worn anywhere but the front unless they are just standing around around or sitting.

[InsaneIrish]

thats what I'd always thought too, but it tends to get in the way sometimes. the way their sword belts/sashes seem to fit (too me) makes them easy to shift so the sword hangs at the side, back, or front. most depictions of landsknect just sort of standing or posing have the katzbalgrs at the front (where they are visable and identify them as landsknecht and not swiss rivals?). when they are actually doing something active (marching, fighting, loading a gun, etc.) they seem to be shown more on the back or side like shown in the color images above. I noticed that after I started to move my sword to my back when loading my crossbow. if you can lay your eyes on the osprey Landsknect soldier book then take a look at some of the drawings from Paul Dolstein's illustrated journal, and other woodcuts, paintings, and drawings also often show the katzbalger worn anywhere but the front unless they are just standing around around or sitting.

Do you think it could be that they moved it depending on their job/activity? Certainly in a pike line when they have grounded the pikes it is much easier to hold onto the pike and have a hand on the katzbalger with it slung across the front.


Also, I keep reading about the landzknect "flambouent" dress. the garish colors and missmatch patterns. I also see MANY woodcuts showing the Landsknect with tattered and ripped clothing. BUT, I don't see much or any of that when I look at LH and re-enactment groups portraying Landsknect. They all seem to "match" their outfits seem to all go together, the plunderhosen the same color as the WaffenFrock. The hose and same color as the other hose. They seem to all wear matched clothes. But when I read about the landzknect it seems to lend me to believe that the medieval Landzknect was anything but Matching. AND I don't see anyone with tattered or worn out clothes like so many landzknect in the woodcuts show.

Am I missing something or is their other information out there I am missing?

[Jason Grimes]

Do you think it could be that they moved it depending on their job/activity? Certainly in a pike line when they have grounded the pikes it is much easier to hold onto the pike and have a hand on the katzbalger with it slung across the front.

I think Dweezle might be correct. I have seen Landsknechten wearing their swords in front and on the side, but I don't think I have seen them in the back. I know that the Swiss Reislaufer wore their distinctive daggers in the small of their backs. It could very well be a sign of the difference between them. I have noticed that sometimes the lower part of the sword would be slung in the rear half of the sword belt. I have tried this and it improves control of the sword significantly.

Also, I keep reading about the landzknect "flambouent" dress. the garish colors and missmatch patterns. I also see MANY woodcuts showing the Landsknect with tattered and ripped clothing. BUT, I don't see much or any of that when I look at LH and re-enactment groups portraying Landsknect. They all seem to "match" their outfits seem to all go together, the plunderhosen the same color as the WaffenFrock. The hose and same color as the other hose. They seem to all wear matched clothes. But when I read about the landzknect it seems to lend me to believe that the medieval Landzknect was anything but Matching. AND I don't see anyone with tattered or worn out clothes like so many landzknect in the woodcuts show.

I think it depends on the time period you are talking about. In the early Landsknecht period (1495 to 1520) it was fashionable to have your clothing torn, mostly the hosen. This fashion seems to die out towards the end of the 1520's. Most groups that do Landsknechts focus on the 1530's, so this would be a little after the torn clothing era. As to colors matching, most historic artwork that I have seen depicts the clothing colors as matching. Usually using no more then 2 to 4 different colors for each ensemble. I don't know if that were because the artist didn't have enough colors to make them different or if in fact the mostly wore matching clothing. Maybe it was the difference between the wealthy and the not-so-wealthy? Many times, for men, tI have seen them wearing a single color doublet/wams and then a single color hosen. Both could be slashed to show a different color underneath. It does appear to me that in general the earlier period was more colorful then later period. ??

[RenJunkie]

The elbows on the propaganda piece almain....Is that jsut the artist not knowing how to make an elbow, or are there actually almain elbows like that?

That would be WAY easier to do in leather than all the types of floater I've seen before..

Thanks,
Christopher

[Uadahlrich]

I've nearly completed my wams and hosen from "Recreating History".
Now I need to hunt up some decent footwear. Any suggestions? I need sturdy (of course) but am plagued with plantar faceius (sp?)

[Uadahlrich]

i have a question im making a black and white Landsknecht armour.and cant figure out wht the armour would look like flat so i can make pattern pices to make the armor can any one help me

I think you'll have better luck trying to find an armorer to ask about patterns to lay out. There doesn't seem to be anything forthcoming here.

Has everyone left?

[Uadahlrich]

My new Wams and Hosen I finished during peace week at Pennsic got mauled by my washer. Serves me right for doing laundry as soon as I get home and tired. I don't know if they can be salvaged.
I'm currently looking for a supply of tropical weight wool of appropriate colour or some that would be good candidates for dying.
Any help would be appreciated.

On an un associated note: If you were the gentle who happened to come up to me outside the barn at Pennsic and asked my what Landsknecht group I was with. Please, PLEASE forgive my, what I feel was a, short answer. I was on a mission to get water for The Midrealms newest member of the Bronze Ring who was going through dehydration sickness in the back of Midrealm court. I appologise most profusely.

As to your question, which I failed to answer, I am not a member of any organized Fahnlein at this time.

[InsaneIrish]

I second the request for information about shoes, I'm in desparate need of period (or even period-look) footwear.

I have been hunting for different shoe examples for a while. What I have come up with is that "Cows Mouth Shoes" are by far the more popular type of shoe used by Landsknechts. They are rampent in period woodcuts.

There seems to be another slipper type shoe worn by KampFrau. One closely resembling the Cow Mouth, but with a strap across the bridge of the foot and slashes across the top.

Mounted officers seem to have worn knee high boots, but I have seen no evidence of them on foot soldiers.


Which brings up a question. I have seen Cow Mouths and I find it very hard to believe that one could effectively wear them in combat. They are not conducive to sudden lateral movements and offer almost NO protection.

I have seen a photo of a shoe from a re-enactor in one of my books. It looks like a rounded toe turn shoe. Is there any evidence that this were used?

[Maeryk]

I've nearly completed my wams and hosen from "Recreating History".
Now I need to hunt up some decent footwear. Any suggestions? I need sturdy (of course) but am plagued with plantar faceius (sp?)

There was a guy just behind Medieval Miscellania this year who had some great cow mouths.

As far as the shoes go, cow mouths and the mary-janes both had or did not have, depending, the strap across the ankle. I have seen them depicted both ways. I have also seen the bear-paws.. which just barely have the toes covered, and just a heel counter in the back. I _suspect_ they were stitched to the hosen to keep them on, as there is NO way they stayed on otherwise.

There are some examples of more 'normal" turn shoes worn also in some of the woodcuts, and if you look at the sabatons in a lot of the woodcuts, there's no WAY a big square-toe shoe was in there.. more likely a more typical boot with a round toe.

From the shoemakers i have talked to, it is fairly likely that the cowmouths and bearpaws weren't turned shoes at all, but were welted outseam sewn shoes that were put together like modern shoes.. right side out. some of those shapes would be near impossible to turn otherwise.

[Jason Grimes]

As far as the shoes go, cow mouths and the mary-janes both had or did not have, depending, the strap across the ankle. I have seen them depicted both ways. I have also seen the bear-paws.. which just barely have the toes covered, and just a heel counter in the back. I _suspect_ they were stitched to the hosen to keep them on, as there is NO way they stayed on otherwise.

I think you might be able to make them so they would stay on, if the shoe covers enough of the toes and heel that is. It would be interesting to see just how practable it would be to sew the shoes to the hosen? They would have to have really stiff sides I would think if you didn't want to sew them to the hose.

There are some examples of more 'normal" turn shoes worn also in some of the woodcuts, and if you look at the sabatons in a lot of the woodcuts, there's no WAY a big square-toe shoe was in there.. more likely a more typical boot with a round toe.

From the shoemakers i have talked to, it is fairly likely that the cowmouths and bearpaws weren't turned shoes at all, but were welted outseam sewn shoes that were put together like modern shoes.. right side out. some of those shapes would be near impossible to turn otherwise.

Didn't they find some cowmouth/bearpaw shoes beneath the floorboards of a house in Germany a few years ago? I think some of them were turnshoes, but were dated pretty early Landesknecht wise. From what I remember they were mostly dated to before 1510. I have the information back at home that I can post if anyone is interested.

[Maeryk]

Yes, Please. I am desperately trying to find a viable alternative to cow mouths. 1. cow mouths won't work for SCA combat. Smile 2. I have flat feet and I don't think cow mouths will be a viable shoe for me and walking. Smile

Dru Shoemaker makes a really nice pair of bearpaws, with "modern" style soles, and even a bit of a heel, if I remember correctly, that would probably work just fine for you.

Or, just get some standard 15thC boots..

[rameymj]

I _suspect_ they were stitched to the hosen to keep them on, as there is NO way they stayed on otherwise.

IIRC there is a woodcut of a woman who had collected tens of shoes. One speculation is they were taken off the dead; another that they were gathered from the battlefield after they had fallen off. I don't remember where I saw this, so it may not be a period woodcut/picture.

There are pictures of cowmouths in "A Step Through Time" that seem to indicate that they were shoes and not just attached to hosen. I'll have to get the book again.

[Jason Grimes]

Here is the information on the find in Kempten (Allgäu). Click on the fig links for the pictures, very cool. They even go into the construction of the shoes too.

http://www.coeln1475.de/mirrors/www.uni ... /shoes.htm

Most are turn shoes, the one that most interested me was:

http://www.coeln1475.de/mirrors/www.uni ... e/abb8.htm

[InsaneIrish]

.

Or, just get some standard 15thC boots..

Example please of this "standard 15thC boots" you speak of?

[Jason Grimes]

Hi all,

Karl asked me to post this for him. Here you go Karl.

http://www.grimmarmoury.com/armour/tudor%20shoes.jpg

[Maeryk]

http://www.armlann.com/1415.htm

[Karl Helweg]

Jason, thanks for posting the "Tudor" shoe patterns. I hope that this gives folks a place to start making their own shoes from.

I agree that at least some of the times those little slippers had to have been attached to the hosen or you just couldn't march or fight in them.

[InsaneIrish]

So, if I can get together a group order from Darmour for some Cow Mouth shoes (the ones below). How many would be interested?

[InsaneIrish]

those shoes look very nice. is there a website for darmour?

No website, he is a re-distributor for An Indian company. So far here is what I have.

minimum order is 15 pairs
you CAN order different sizes in that 15 pairs
you CAN order different color combinations (subject to availability of materials of course)

Preliminary price (subject to change) is $40 a pair + shipping from my house to yours.


I am getting a pair sent to me for Evaluation. I will post pictures and review after getting them.


He also has a number of other styles, including a style like the 15th century boots Maeryk posted and some different styls of Lachets, with and without heels.

But right now I am only interested in the Cow mouths. IF this works out and all goes well I might do it again with a different style shoe.

[Gytingbroce]

Hi,

None of you know me because I live in Australia. But I have two kits that approximate Landshnecht fof the SCA and helped with about four or five more

[img]http://www.sca.org.au/rowany/Images/coldwar061.jpg[/img]


I would be very interested in the cowmouth shoes. I have friends in US who would post them on.

Regards,

Hrothgar

[Gytingbroce]

This is the kit that I made in irder that i could hide ugly armour for my investiture as the Baron of Rowany.

The waffenrok is based on a woodcut, the rok covers my leg armour, arms, body - the only thing I had to get them was a halbard, gauntlets and I opted for a sallet.

[img]http://www.sca.org.au/rowany/Freiherr%2 ... herrin.jpg[/img]

Hrothgar.[/img]

[Uadahlrich]

Not a bad kit Excellency. I'm starting work on a waffenrok for over my heavy stuff as well. Trying to decide on what fabric to hunt for that'll wear hard yet still look good. As well as trying to track down some tropical weight wool for a new set of wams and hosen.

[woodwose]

I made some new hose this last summer!!! They are partly based on janet arnold's patterns for the leather foundation for pluderhose.



a couple more pictures on this page: (sorry these pages aren't really dial-up friendly)
http://mailmaker.tripod.com/garb/cutoffhose.html
...and I've been re-editing some of my other clothing pages that are all linked through here: http://mailmaker.tripod.com/garb/

[Gottfried]

I have a pair of Kuhmäuler from Kovex and they are grate

This is what they looked like when I had just got them in 2004
http://www.flickr.com/photos/77086627@N00/260963299/

Here is a picture of what they look like now
http://www.flickr.com/photos/77086627@N00/260963288/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/77086627@N00/260963292/

I have had to resole them once but that was because I walked the old one off

Gottfried


http://www.flickr.com/photos/77086627@N00/

[Uadahlrich]

I've been thinking about ordering from Kovex but haven't heard anything about their workmanship. What are your thoughts?

[Gottfried]

Link would be http://www.kovex-ars.cz/armoury/ekuze.html

Uadahlrich
There work is very good the shoes have held up to two years of events and SCA Combat (Fencing and Heavy) and all that had to be done was to resole them a month ago. And for the price you can’t bet them. Leather hand made shoes that are made for your feet exactly for 133 euro????
(You will need to send them a tracing of your foot and some measurements).

Now if you want 100% authentic shoes don't get them they have a modern sole. They do look the part though

Gottfried

p.s. I really love my Kuhmäuler

[James B.]

I made some new hose this last summer!!! They are partly based on janet arnold's patterns for the leather foundation for pluderhose.

Dweezle you have one of the best Landsknecht outfit I have seen, you have the eye for historical detail, keep up the good work.

I will be displaying my coif and hat tomorrow at our crown tournement and will post pictures next week.

And incase you guys have not seen this yet take a look:

http://www.historiska.se/histvarld/drak ... /index.htm

[InsaneIrish]

And incase you guys have not seen this yet take a look:

http://www.historiska.se/histvarld/drak ... /index.htm

James that site is way cool!

I can't read german. Can you tell me alittle abou the text?

2 points in particular.

1. The sword, it looks like the Katzbalger is very long and one sided, more closely resembling a Messemer(sp?) sword a Rassilefler(sp?) would use. Not a Landsknecht. Does the text explain why?

2. The dagger, once again this looks like a swiss cross dagger that a Rassilefler(sp?) would have not a Landsknecht. Does the text explain why?

Many I wish I had patterns for those pants and jacket.

[James B.]

I think its in Swedish which you can't bablefish currently

If you look at the bottom of each page with the clothing there is a pattern for just about each piece if you understand pattern parts without text.

My hat and coif I entered in an A&S comp this weekend:

[img]http://home.armourarchive.org/members/f ... CT0105.jpg[/img]

[img]http://home.armourarchive.org/members/f ... CT0107.jpg[/img]

[img]http://home.armourarchive.org/members/f ... CT0108.jpg[/img]

[James B.]

Ok new question, had anyone seen historical art that shows the style of jacket they made on the Swedish site:

[img]http://www.historiska.se/histvarld/drak ... G_2937.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.historiska.se/histvarld/drak ... G_2942.jpg[/img]

Gerry Embleton has it drawn out in the latest Osprey book on landsknecht but I do not know its source. The split top held together with ties it’s interesting. It is a cool looking jacket and if I can find a historical image of it I would like to make one.