I wanna be a CRUSADER

audax · Post by **audax** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 11:27 pm

The Templars took a vow of poverty, so who you were a son of would have made no difference. They were poor knights and monks who renounced worldly things.

An English text of the Rule of the Templars (part of the Cistercian Order) may be found here:

http://www.the-orb.net/encyclop/religio ... _rule.html

AlvarCadiz · Post by **AlvarCadiz** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:36 am

audax wrote:An English text of the Rule of the Templars (part of the Cistercian Order)

Audax,

Just a point of clarification. The Templars were a distinct order from the Cistercians. The rule gives Citeaux no authority over the order. Moreover, St. Bernard is very clear when expressing his disappointment that Hugh of Champagne would become a Templar rather than joining the brethern at Clairvaux. You are correct that the Templar rule and the Cistercian version of St. Benedict's rule share common features.

Alvar

Gaston de Clermont · Post by **Gaston de Clermont** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:06 am

The Cistercians were founded near Dijon, the capital of Burgundy, and they're the mourners in the Valois dukes tombs. It makes them extra bad ass in my book. It's so nice to stumble across a couple of my favorite folks talking about my favorite monks.
I wonder if there's any direct link between the white robes of the Cistercians and the classic white crusader togs you see, or if it's purely coincidence.

Donald St. Colin · Post by **Donald St. Colin** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:38 am

audax wrote:The Templars took a vow of poverty, so who you were a son of would have made no difference. They were poor knights and monks who renounced worldly things.

Until tithing or donations were considered. Then "whoes your daddy?" became a very important question.

(we all know how it works)

Effingham · Post by **Effingham** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:42 pm

I just wanted to provide a link to a great 13th C. jousting thread here, as that is some SPECTACULAR armour for the period.

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=95341

Tigernach · Post by **Tigernach** » Tue May 05, 2009 8:26 pm

Mundane life and responsibilities attendant to that have kept me from SCA practices this past year the way I would like to have attended. Nevertheless, I'm hoping to upgrade my kit to embrace the early 13th century. I'm also trying to remove all visible plastic. I hope I am putting this in the right place in the forum.

I'm trying to build a in which to enter Chivalric Age tournaments from which my present Heroic Age ( c. A.D. 700-1050) harness excludes me.

I'm working the idea of representing a searjent in Outremer, about A.D. 1205 or evena bit earlier, not necessarily a Crusader, but rather residing as a settler in the vicinity of Acre. I have a chain mail haubregon of good quality, riveted mail, which is still a little small for me to fight in comfortably. As my weight is going down, I anticipate this will not permanently be a problem. I need to make myself:

1. An Aketon : plan is one layer of cotton batting between two layers of strong linen, with an extra layer batting around kidneys and over the shoulders; I'm thinking this will be short-sleeved, and without batting on the biceps.
2. Linen hose and Revival Low Boots ( I already have their turn shoes, but I don't think they will be strong enough or durable enough to fight in.)
3. A sleeved surcoat , with the length past the knees.
4. Dog collar heavy leather gorget (safety requirement).

I already have:
1. Linen arming coif
3. A very nice Ice Falcon Topfhelm with globos faceplate and the welded chain mail drape;
4. Hardened leather vambraces (actually bazubounds) from Torvald for forearm and elbow protection;
5. Light linen Arming shirt
6. Hand protection. Not yet correct, but I am in an armorer's queque for it.

Now as to what I need advice about, two questions:

1. I hope eventually to be able to wear the chain mail shirt in tournaments especially for the early kit.. However, until that time, and in melee, I would like to be able to be cooler.. I have a plastic sport armor -a vest of plastic plates that I can wear in a pinch, but I would like something a little more traditional. In addition, I can see that it would be nice to have something that I could wear for additional belly and kidney protection with the chain mail for my Heroic Age kit. I was thinking of a "byrnie" -shaped body armor of hardened leather plates or scale... I am thinking that even if these show a bit through or under the surcoat, I would not be out of line with period artistic witnesses...

A solid piece cuirie would be awkward for me for foot combat, and I couldn't use it to protect my belly in the early period kit. It would be in any case completely covered by the surcoat in the 13th c. kit, so I think I'm ok.. Or am I totally off track here?

2. I want a leg armor I can live with. I really like the GDFB padded cuisses that are sold by Therion, among others, but I think the polyns sewn on them may be too late for my period. Also, I would prefer not to put cops over them ( though I willl if I have to, and just make the surcoat really long. I wonder if anybody has experience with them in a rattan combat context. I am also wondering if I could use padded low profile courbouilli cop underneath them to satisfy the safety standards. Finally, how good are they at absorbing blows? Are they self sufficient, or do I need to wear a full-length hauberk do drain the energy from shots to the thigh?

Ingvarr · Post by **Ingvarr** » Wed May 27, 2009 2:44 pm

What would be an appropriate dagger and scabbard for a Norman in the Second Crusade? We still looking at a sideways hanging seax or had it changed by then?

Starn · Post by **Starn** » Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:55 pm

Just to add onto that last post, I'm really struggling with some (mostly soft kit) specifics. I'm trying to find information on original belt fittings and cloak brooches from around the 3rd crusade. I can't seem to find any useful information on these so any info, photo's or info on people who do good copies is very, very helpful!

Thaddeus · Post by **Thaddeus** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:56 pm

Anghaus, the Cappa is correct, the knights hospitaller osprey book has a decent illustration by Mcbride I believe. Seaan, shown on our website, wears a very similar robe. He had no trouble fighting in it and aside from the gooby gauntlets looked pretty smashing.
Its a great way to hide sinful armor.

Of course one should be wearing their full mail kit under the robe.
It makes smashing into a line so much more entertaining.

Wilhelm zu Eltz-Kempenich · Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:36 am

Would it be appropriate to wear and Egyptian-made kaftan as part of a crusader kit? If so, would it be appropriate to wear bries and chausses with it, or would it be better to go with a middle-eastern pant as well?

Sophia · Post by **Sophia** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:41 pm

A twist on the crusader topic, if you don't mind: I need to not only make accomodations to satisfy SCA safety standards, but I also want to incorporate chest protection for my female body. Suggestions?

Is there any other style of armor in France, England or the Holy Lands that is lighter and firmer and appropriate for a persona descended from an English knight and a lady of Edessa? I would really like to make my first attempt at matching armor to persona, but fear the lack of protection (and the weight) of chainmail will leave me bruised and weary.

Thanks -
Sophia Edessatsi

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:46 pm

Sophia:

In the 12th century, maille was the predominant body and limb defense, including the hands and feet.

It is conceivable that some early coats of plates existed at this time, such as the "sleeping knight" often referenced.

You could also wear a rigid plastron of some kind either under your maille or under your gambeson.

Bear in mind that a riveted maille shirt using 18GA wire and 3/8" ID rings is only going to weigh about 15-20 pounds.

Steve

Italo Norman · Post by **Italo Norman** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 3:19 am

Found these Pics ..thought I would share them..reenacting harness and kits...I hope that SCA kits keep going to the trend of being as close as we can to some of these reenactor kits.

Rannulf

owen matthew · Post by **owen matthew** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:40 pm

Is there any support to show crusaders wearing lamellar at all, and if so, what type? Thank you.

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:55 pm

owen matthew wrote:Is there any support to show crusaders wearing lamellar at all, and if so, what type? Thank you.

NO.

Odd,

Why wouldn't it have happened? For the same reason Americans and Englishmen didn't start wearing braided ponytails after fighting Chinese Boxers. If lamellar was so desireable to men fully covered in mail, why aren't there depictions of it? Why wasn't lamellar adopted as a replacement for mail in Europe? Why did the coat of plates develop as a supplement to mail, rather than lamellar?

Lamellar is readily available and common in the SCA, but it doesn't reflect medieval western-Europeans' armor during the Crusades, even for those living in the Crusader Kingdoms.

marcus the pale · Post by **marcus the pale** » Sun Dec 27, 2009 7:51 pm

Ernst wrote:
owen matthew wrote:Is there any support to show crusaders wearing lamellar at all, and if so, what type? Thank you.
NO.

Odd,

Why wouldn't it have happened? For the same reason Americans and Englishmen didn't start wearing braided ponytails after fighting Chinese Boxers. If lamellar was so desireable to men fully covered in mail, why aren't there depictions of it? Why wasn't lamellar adopted as a replacement for mail in Europe? Why did the coat of plates develop as a supplement to mail, rather than lamellar?

Lamellar is readily available and common in the SCA, but it doesn't reflect medieval western-Europeans' armor during the Crusades, even for those living in the Crusader Kingdoms.

There was a thread about this last year, took me a bit to find it. Read the whole discussion, and not just the parts you like. I for one find it very informative.
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... er&start=0

marcus

Odd · Post by **Odd** » Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:53 pm

Marcus, thank you for the link. I had not been able to find it. It's been almost a military tradition throughout history for things to be adapted, and outright taken by other folks who just "saw it somewhere" In this case, it is safer to assume that somebody might have done so, rather than assume that nobody ever did.

(Though, to be honest, I was just going to use the research of other presented within for an "IN YO FACE!" reply to Ernst.)

Now.. to make an arbor press die of a maltese cross, and get some pretty lam scales done.

Dragon_Argent · Post by **Dragon_Argent** » Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:20 pm

JT wrote:
First Crusade 1095-1099
Round or kit shields
hauberks, chausses[possibly] and mittens
nasalhelm
single handers, lances, polehammers, axes, spears and maces
surcoats

[/quote]

I don't think this is very accurate. too early for Surcoats (except for the POSSIBILTY of using a full tunic over mail for heat) They are not predominant until the 13thC though they DO apear at the end of the 12C. Polehammer (way too early) axes used but still not common. Most guys in the 1st Crusades would be only slightly advanced of a 1066 Norman. I also doubt the mail mittens as 3/4 sleaves are more common. I think some of the other statements here are - to be polite - sweaping.

Dragon_Argent · Post by **Dragon_Argent** » Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:26 pm

Ingvarr wrote:What would be an appropriate dagger and scabbard for a Norman in the Second Crusade? We still looking at a sideways hanging seax or had it changed by then?

I think Daggars are not yet considered a STANDARD part of a knights equipment yet. That said - the so-called H hilt dagger MAY be comming in by this time.

shortie-n · Post by **shortie-n** » Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:15 pm

ok maybe this post can be more productive
hey guys im getting together a kit well two kits for the Teutonic order for this summer both need to be c.1275 i know its later than this post but i could really do with the help.
the two kits are more three two knight kits and one woman's kit from this period a nun or that would do. were there any associated with this group and did they have there own dress?. two fighting kits one must have a period accurate full face helm.
i got loads of info on early periods elsewhere then saw this post and could do with help. i need a kit suitable for reenactment combat so i need advice on there clothes and weapons at this period.
as for armour i need any patterns you have for helmets. and as many types you know of that they would have worn.
i think thats all really also what sort of banners/heraldry would they have had?
please if anyone can help i will be hugely grateful.
i might also need a period accurate crossbow did the order use them or were there separate troops for this?
thanks in advance.

twoswords · Post by **twoswords** » Mon Jul 26, 2010 10:49 pm

I have always liked the Templars, and am now trying to put together a respectable kit. (Dont judge me to harshly at Pennsic, I will have had less than a week to rush a kit for the Crusaders vs Saracen.

)

I want to start from the inside out. I have sources for most items, but could anyone provide some sources for what style of shoe that would typically have been worn by a english/german Templar around 1151-1153?

I am figuring that with Pennsic coming up, its a good time to browse the market to see what I may find.

KyleKurth · Post by **KyleKurth** » Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:36 am

I would like to know this also as I was going to try to go the German route. Thanks

shortie-n · Post by **shortie-n** » Sun Aug 01, 2010 3:29 pm

or do Teutonic an entirely German order as i desperately need more info on them

Conall Taixali · Post by **Conall Taixali** » Fri Aug 06, 2010 7:03 pm

http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/ ... aixali.jpg
This is my new kit I bought for medieval faires and whatnot. Not sure how accurate it is but I tried to make it as close as I could to what I've seen in books. Time period is around 1100-1200 AD Got a surcoat for it too which is a simple GDFB Templar surcoat which seriously needs to be hemmed to fit me better. Any suggestions on what to add to it?

shortie-n · Post by **shortie-n** » Sat Aug 07, 2010 2:04 pm

shoes some sort of hand protection maybe

Dan Howard · Post by **Dan Howard** » Sat Aug 07, 2010 5:28 pm

Odd wrote:Marcus, thank you for the link. I had not been able to find it. It's been almost a military tradition throughout history for things to be adapted, and outright taken by other folks who just "saw it somewhere" In this case, it is safer to assume that somebody might have done so, rather than assume that nobody ever did.

This is nonesense. There are plenty of Moslem texts stating that Frankish mail was better than any kind of local armour. Why would the Crusaders adopt armour that was inferior to armour they already had? In any case the vast majority of metal armour the Crusaders would have encountered would have been mail and its variants (e.g. kazaghand/jazerant). Lamellar was rare in the Crusader States.

twoswords · Post by **twoswords** » Sat Aug 14, 2010 3:03 pm

Dan Howard wrote: This is nonesense. There are plenty of Moslem texts stating that Frankish mail was better than any kind of local armour. Why would the Crusaders adopt armour that was inferior to armour they already had? In any case the vast majority of metal armour the Crusaders would have encountered would have been mail and its variants (e.g. kazaghand/jazerant). Lamellar was rare in the Crusader States.

Do you have any sources for the muslim texts?

I have just been looking through some books and texts during Pennsic and quickly found pictures of three stonecarvings where Templars are shown to wear lamellar armor under their surcoats. Three different sources indicates to me that the lamellar practice may have been much more common than we think.

Dan Howard · Post by **Dan Howard** » Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:14 am

Usamah's Memoirs probably have the most references to Frankish mail. Every time he mentions it the context is clear that it is superior to the local mail.

I haven't had a chance to look for references but start with Nicolle. IIRC he specifically states that lamellar was usually found in regions to the north of those considered to be part of the Crusader states.

Edit: Robinson says that lamellar was introduced to that region by the Turks during their invasions at the end of the 12th century. If true then no Templar could have adopted it until at least the Third Crusade.

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:34 am

twoswords wrote:Do you have any sources for the muslim texts?

I have just been looking through some books and texts during Pennsic and quickly found pictures of three stonecarvings where Templars are shown to wear lamellar armor under their surcoats. Three different sources indicates to me that the lamellar practice may have been much more common than we think.

Do you have the source for these Templar stone-carvings? A location, photograph, or at least the ISBN for the books you reference?

twoswords · Post by **twoswords** » Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:15 pm

Ernst wrote:
twoswords wrote:Do you have any sources for the muslim texts?

I have just been looking through some books and texts during Pennsic and quickly found pictures of three stonecarvings where Templars are shown to wear lamellar armor under their surcoats. Three different sources indicates to me that the lamellar practice may have been much more common than we think.
Do you have the source for these Templar stone-carvings? A location, photograph, or at least the ISBN for the books you reference?

Trying my best to find them again. When I do I will be sure to post them here.

Armand d'Alsace · Post by **Armand d'Alsace** » Fri Aug 20, 2010 3:43 am

I don't have the books here(so no ISBN nor reference), but in Osprey's "Acre 1291" and "English medieval knight 120-1300" there are effiges that shows breastplates or CoPlates worn underneath the surcoat.

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Fri Aug 20, 2010 11:46 am

Arngrim wrote:I don't have the books here(so no ISBN nor reference), but in Osprey's "Acre 1291" and "English medieval knight 120-1300" there are effiges that shows breastplates or CoPlates worn underneath the surcoat.

There is a big difference between a coat of plates and lamellar. CoPs are widely known to have been used by Europeans after about 1250.

Armand d'Alsace · Post by **Armand d'Alsace** » Sat Aug 21, 2010 9:38 am

*slaps forehead*
I dunno what I was thinking, I guess my head is too full of the armour I'm planning myself.

Sorry.

Cisco · Post by **Cisco** » Wed Sep 08, 2010 5:56 pm

Can I get a critique?

Newest setup, showing front and side view at practice last night (hence the beat up shield). The shoes aren't visible but they are jorvik shoes (from Bohemond, but I use different styles from time to time as it suits my fancy).

A split front and back tabard was pretty much always worn, right? I like the look a little better without it (and I'm lazy for practices sometimes) but I'm going to wear it to be pretty.

I'm currently working on getting my finger gauntlets sewn so I can use them to fight in.

Calder Berube d'Clairvaux · Sun Sep 12, 2010 6:26 pm

For those of us going with the SCA specific crusader look, does anyone have any great suggestions on how/where to get a good "lower-profile" gorget that fits well under mail? I know this is all relative to how big our necks are, but in general, it seems that the metal dog collar types still, seem to stick out or be a bit more visible.

Also, for your cheap Brigandine or COP look, do the pre-made india types have any merit? They are made with 18g steel plates and come in at only 170 or so, but I wish someone had some feedback on how well they work for actual SCA use, otherwise likely will just go with hidden plastic from Bokalo.
Thanks!

I wanna be a CRUSADER

Serjeant in Outremer 1205

12th Century Armor for a Female Body

Re: I wanna be a CRUSADER