I wanna be a CRUSADER

[owen matthew]

For those of us going with the SCA specific crusader look, does anyone have any great suggestions on how/where to get a good "lower-profile" gorget that fits well under mail? I know this is all relative to how big our necks are, but in general, it seems that the metal dog collar types still, seem to stick out or be a bit more visible.

Also, for your cheap Brigandine or COP look, do the pre-made india types have any merit? They are made with 18g steel plates and come in at only 170 or so, but I wish someone had some feedback on how well they work for actual SCA use, otherwise likely will just go with hidden plastic from Bokalo.
Thanks!

If you have an aventaille you can probably be OK with a leather dog-collar. I use that now, and I do not even have the chain! 1/4'' padding on the inside, though.

18g steel is also just fine for a COP, I'd use plastic or hardened leather on the inside of a leather vest, myself. I was looking at an 18g globose today that was pretty solid, and light as well. Fine for anything but the hardest spear shots i think.

[Andre]

Hi I have a couple of questions about helms for an early 12th century Teutonic persona for the sca.
I found this Salt shaker helm http://www.horsefriendarmory.com/CrusaderHelm.html and was wondering if anyone had any imput about the maker?
Next a friend found this helm http://whitemountainarmoury.com/images/ ... dgetgh.jpg would the second be ok for that time period and persona? I really am ok with either of them as long as they work, and well are not too expensive.
Thanks for any advice,
Andre

[Gerhard von Liebau]

Hello Andre,

Welcome to the Armour Archive. Your first problem is that the Teutonic knights did not exist in the early 12th century. The order was founded in about 1190 AD, after the end of the Third Crusade. So you may want to do some research regarding your persona. Continuing onto the helmets...

In the early 12th century, one is limited to conical or round helmet bowls with or without nasals, historically. No face plates, no neck plates, no flat tops. Germany had a wide variety of cultural influences at this time, but the arms and armor throughout almost the entirety of central and Western Europe at the time were rather similar in design. Mail hauberks and haubergeons with very little in the way of padded armor yet (which was an influence primarily from the Crusades as such armor was discovered among Eastern peoples). No coverage on the hands and rarely were mail chausses seen yet, if at all, as far as known evidence goes, which is typically artistic.

Onto the helmets you're looking at specifically... The first is barely workable for the late 12th century, considering it's necessary to cover your entire head in steel for SCA... Otherwise, even the late 12th century did not see the rise of a full-coverage barrel helm such as the first one. They would have had visors but no plates over the back of the neck until about 1210 or so. The sugarloaf (second pic) is best suited to between about 1280-1330, roughly varied throughout regional context, but is definitely not suitable any earlier.

-Gerhard

[Sir Greggie]

Andre, I can vouch for the armorer of your first picture. I have known Alail for almost 30 years and he does good work.
Gregory

[Konstantin the Red]

Welcome and well come, Andre. Yeah, the bucket -- the topfhelm -- will do as a "farb." It is a bit decoupled in time from your desired period, but armor decoupled from persona happens all the time in the Society anyway, for quite defensible reasons. Helps if the entire harness is all within one decade and one region, though. Or one region and about four decades' span, tops. A strict-to-persona hat would likely take the form of a Norman conical slatback-and-drape. Or SB-saltshaker, or SB-gumdrop -- an inflated, rounded off conical. The twelfth century's hats were called pot helms, one of the two periods for which the term is current. At least in these Current Middle Ages. Probably the easiest picture to find online is googling up an image for Thomas à Becket; the knights martyring him wear three kinds of pot helms, with sketchily detailed face bars too, apparently.

A lot of the time, we documentation hounds will find a dating of pictorial evidence that brackets our desired date, one before and two after, say. So we set 'em side by side and see what if anything differs, earlier to later. Early times, change was pretty leisurely. Come the thirteenth century, things start to pick up. The fourteenth rolled along at a pace that by comparison was almost furious, with innovations arriving at a generational pace! And surviving documentation is thicker on the ground too.

In the mid and late twelfth century, I think mail chausses would have been increasingly common. They were shown as princely gear on the eleventh-century Bayeux Tapestry. They were very common by the mid thirteenth, one hundred thirty years after your time of interest.

[edited to fix Thomas à Becket]

[Thaddeus]

Circa 1250, please excuse the gauntlets, havent found a way to do mittens that look right and I am comfortable with yet.

[Armand d'Alsace]

I'm aiming for 1291.
I wonder of anyone has good source material on sugarloafs?

Also, I found this picture:
[img]http://diglit.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/digl ... 1/082v.jpg[/img]

I'm intrigued by the shoulder squares. I indended to include leather ailettes(term?) anyway, but they appear to be covered in cloth, and this is the first time I've seen the strands flowing from them. I assume they are cloth covered leather, any other opinions?

[Token Bastard]

There's an image in "Armies and Warfare in the Middle Ages: The English Experience" by Michael Prestwich that has an illumination of a woman placing a knight's sugarloaf helm upon his head. I'll see if I can run down the image name and source when I get home today; I can't remember the name of it off the top of my head.

-Ed

[Ernst]

I'm aiming for 1291.
I wonder of anyone has good source material on sugarloafs?

Also, I found this picture:
[img]http://diglit.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/digl ... 1/082v.jpg[/img]

I'm intrigued by the shoulder squares. I indended to include leather ailettes(term?) anyway, but they appear to be covered in cloth, and this is the first time I've seen the strands flowing from them. I assume they are cloth covered leather, any other opinions?

It's the only example of "feathers" on the "little wings" (ailettes) that I've ever found. Like the peacock-tail eyes stuck in the horns, I'm sure they would add flutter to a galloping jouster. Although there is nothing in the equipment which would seem futuristic for 1291, be aware the Codex Manesse is dated c.1305-1340 by the University of Heidelberg.

[Armand d'Alsace]

I can't seem to find the picture online, but on page 61 in Osprey Elite The Crusades there is a picture crusaders massacre muslims of Antioch depicting crusaders in roundtopped greathelms. According to Osprey the source is History of Outremer made in Acre 1290-91.(Bib.Laur.,Ms.Plut.LCI.10, f.61, Florence) I can't read the reference in the parethesis, but it appears to me that I can document a sugarloaf to 1291.

I weren't going for the "flare" look on the ailettes, but it seems to me that it is probable that they are constructed by covering a rigid material in cloth.

[Sjolander]

Just found this site, it's got some good examples of crusader kits. I used google translate to see what it said.


http://www.bouvines1214.org/spip.php?article8

[Armand d'Alsace]

Nice one sjolander.

[Phelippe du Peiregore]

Or you speak french natively, it helps a bunch =P

This is my take at late 12th Century, Third crusade:

-Sport armor under knee-length tunic with 3/4 sleeves.
-Arms are mostly hidden under the sleeves (regular articulated cops on leather w/ hidden splints)
-Gauntlets are "stealth" fingered gauntlets. From a spear length, they look like leather.
-Legs (not shown) they are hidden plastic legs under sweat pants, right now.
-Belt is purely SCAdian, and not in my future plans for the kit. It does look good, mind.

A chain hauberk with long sleeves is something I'm keeping in mind for later to go over the sport padding. I'm still a student on a budget!

So I have a question: Like I mentionned, right now, I only have sweat pants for my legs. What would be more appropriate that would cover the hidden legs?

Also any tips, corrections or ideas are appreciated!

[David de Clermont]

Braies and chausses, Phelippe, if you're wanting a period look. Normally I'd steer you towards Historic Enterprises to purchase both, but due to the bulkiness of hidden knee/leg armour their chausses can be a little problematic. I purchased a pair of wool chausses that would stretch enough fit over my motocross knees and used sole weight leather to make a pair of cuisses dyed to match the chausses to cover the thighs. Since your tunic hangs to at least knee level, you won't even see the cuisses anyway. You might give Gwen a call over at HE and discuss your needs with her.

[Mlanteigne]

I'm looking at putting together an English knight's panoply from the 1st crusades. This will not be for the SCA. I am going to use my windlass medieval arming sword (for now, until I can get a nice type XII). Here is what I found I also need:

First Crusade 1095-1099
Round or kite shields <--- these I can make out of ply wood, and bosses are easy to get.

hauberks, chausses[possibly] and mittens

Anyone know of a cheap source for butted mail, other than Kult of Athena?
Haubergon from DGFB (KoA) http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp ... 7%27+Chest

Hauberk from GDFB (KoA) http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp ... 7%27+Chest

nasalhelm
Coif from Kult of Athena http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp ... Mild+Steel

Simple spangenhelm
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp ... pangenhelm

single handers, lances, polehammers, axes, spears and maces
I'll stick to my single hander...

surcoats

What would be the material used...linen? where can I get one, or better yet, are there patterns on the 'net somewhere? Lastly, how would I know what emblem to put on it?

What do I wear for a shirt, pants, and footwear?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Greenshield]

I'm looking at putting together an English knight's panoply from the 1st crusades. This will not be for the SCA. I am going to use my windlass medieval arming sword (for now, until I can get a nice type XII). Here is what I found I also need:

First Crusade 1095-1099
Round or kite shields <--- these I can make out of ply wood, and bosses are easy to get.

hauberks, chausses[possibly] and mittens

Anyone know of a cheap source for butted mail, other than Kult of Athena?
Haubergon from DGFB (KoA) http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp ... 7%27+Chest

Hauberk from GDFB (KoA) http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp ... 7%27+Chest

nasalhelm
Coif from Kult of Athena http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp ... Mild+Steel

Simple spangenhelm
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp ... pangenhelm

single handers, lances, polehammers, axes, spears and maces
I'll stick to my single hander...

surcoats

What would be the material used...linen? where can I get one, or better yet, are there patterns on the 'net somewhere? Lastly, how would I know what emblem to put on it?

What do I wear for a shirt, pants, and footwear?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Mlanteigne,

If memory serves, the surcote did not come into fashion until the 3rd crusade so you can skip that. I would suggest a longer tunic that is visible beneath the hem of the hauberk or a Aketon. All material should be made of linen.

Check Ice Falcon Armory. Occasionally he has butted mail as well as chain chausses:
http://store.fastcommerce.com/icefalcon ... 183-c.html

I got mine from Knuut:
http://www.weldedchainmail.com/

For shoes I suggest Bohemond Boots:
http://www.nmia.com/~bohemond/Bootshop/ ... /shoe.html

For clothing check:
http://lokislocker.net/

Also check the AA Classified section. There are many talented folks making period tunics for 1st crusade personas.

The spears and helms at Kult of Athena are nicely priced. I get my spear heads from them. You might also check the AA Classified section to see if anyone is selling a dress helm or the armory section and see if someone would be willing to make you one.



Here are a few shots of my interpretation:













A little earlier circa 1066 (not me)


Best of luck!

GreenShield

[Mlanteigne]

My friend...thank you so much! Not just some good advice...but reference pictures as well. Again, my thanks!

[Greenshield]

Happy to help.

G

[NeeSayer]

What type of helm should I be aiming for with a persona right at the dawn of the 13th C? My persona is a sgt at arms for the hospitallers in 1207 but my research skills seem to be lacking in this department. I currently have a closed face round top great helm but I think a nasal helm would be more appropriate for my personas station and time frame. Advice?

[Mlanteigne]

Ok, so I am an IDIOT.

Turns out that I have the date 1098 burned into my head as being when my ancestor fought in the crusades under King Richard the Lionheart, however that is simply impossible.

Naturally I realized now that it's the 3rd crusade that I am looking for...meaning I have to adjust my kit list lol. So... based on the first post at the start of this thread, I am looking at:

Maille hauberk, full sleeves with integral mittens and coif <--- both can be had at Kult of Athena.

maille chausses <---- where to buy?

Barrel helm,"Bell helms" <---- is this an example of what I want? https://ssl.perfora.net/www.finditarmor ... shopscript

Flat topped, longer heater shield. <--- how does 21 inches wide, by 35 inches sound? That is about 8 inches longer than a standard heater. Also, since I will now be wearing a surcoat, what emblem would it be, and do I paint the shield the same? How much curvature do I want on the shield?

From the original post:
A well armed man would have a mail hauberk with integral coif and mufflers, chausses and a helmet or possibly an early helm. The pot helm appears frequently in german art of the period (What we tend to call the salt shaker style helm). But the helmet worn could have been a round topped nasal or a conical nasal as well. Kettle hats were also popular, particularly with the infantry. The Surcoat was popular and often hides any additional body defence. There are some hints from around the time period. Surcoats drawn with shoulders that stick out and up as if there were something bulky underneath, and an effigy in the temple church, London (iirc) that shows a buckled curie under the surcoat. Although I believe that is several decades post third crusade.
Shields were flat topped kites or long heaters. -Thaddeus

[Odd]

Icefalcon has the chausses. It's best to buy all your mail from the same place if you can, so it matches.

If you are at the crusades fighting in Richard's chain of command directly, you would display his heraldry. If there under Richard indirectly, you would have the heraldry of your lord. If there as a Templar, you would use the heraldry of the proper order. Usually it would be the same device on both your surcoat and your shield.

The shield sounds fine.
The greathelm would be be a bit early. A Norman Conical with nasal and aventail would be right throughout.

[Phelippe du Peiregore]

Two quick question on the third crusade:

After reading what Thaddeus wrote (from the original post), would a round top kite shield still in usage during the 3rd crusade?
Also wondering if the full mail kit was a standard, or for those more fortunate? I was planning on going for a hauberk, but without the mail chausses (Would stick to linen w/ hidden armor (SCA))

[Gerhard von Liebau]

Phelippe,

A round-topped kite shield would still be appropriate at this date, but more particularly among infantrymen. Kites with flat-tops that begin to resemble heaters (but not so squat as later styles) would be common among cavalry by the time of the Third Crusade.

Full mail harnesses would be expensive and tedious to maintain, particularly on campaign. It is likely that only knights and mounted sergeants would be able to afford and comfortably use cap-a-pie mail at this time. Infantrymen or even knights unlucky enough to lose their mounts on the campaign trail (which happened to a huge percentage of them, sadly enough for the horses) would probably not wear chausses - walking a thousand miles in them would suck. Period. You'll be fine without them.

Cheers!

- Gerhard

[Morag]

I wear 15th century german gothic armour and my household is Teutonic. Does any one know some good refrences for clothes and what to wear under the armour to be more period.

[Thaddeus]

Gerhard is correct.
Sergeants were given a dispensation for footless chausses, iirc. Sorry I cant recall the source so that is entirely hearsay, heresy - um.... based on my entirely unreliable memory. The round topped norman kite shield proper was largely out of vogue by the third crusade, but infantry would have carried larger shields some of which did resemble the kite.

Mine is a sort of round topped heater / very late flat topped kite.
i.e. Pure fantasy.
I sent Roderick a picture of my friend Drogo's shield and asked him to cut one like it for me.
Its a fantastic shape.

My kit more or less as it stands currently:

This is actually too late for the 3rd crusade by a solid fifty or more years.
The helm should be a round cap with a large nasal.
The greaves and poleyns should be replaced by mail chausses, or no chausses.
My shield should be a longer more gracile form of flat topped kite. This one is really pushing into the latter part of the 13nth century, not that you can actually see much of it.
There you have it.

Oh and the sleeves should terminate in mittens.

[William Lee]

Gerhard is correct.
Sergeants were given a dispensation for footless chausses, iirc. Sorry I cant recall the source so that is entirely hearsay, heresy - um.... based on my entirely unreliable memory.

Rule#141:

"...and they may have a sleeveless coat of maille, hose without feet, and a chapeau-de-fer, and all these aforementioned things they may have according to the means of the house."

The sense of the Rule is that "you put your sergeants whatever armour the particular preceptory could afford.

Source:

The Rule of the Templars Translated and introduced by J. Upton Ward, pg. 54, Boydell & Brewer Publishing. ISBN 0-85115-701-7

[Edward MacTavish]

I need to post some pictures, but I have been working on a 1250's Hospitilar kit. I think I have a good start. Will try to get pictures up soon.

Edward

[Edward MacTavish]

Under the robe I have an arming coat with Leather elbows pointed to it and the small flower elbow caps attatched over those. Padded legs with the flat style knees and schinbalds. The legs are held up with a split strap belt and points. I am going to make a reenforced surcoat when all the parts come in. All the cloth is linen with Bamboo stuffing. The barrel helm has a sewn in liner. I need to figure out what I would like to do about the gauntlets still. I have the chain that would go with this kit but have been asked to lighten up on the armour.

Edward

[Thaddeus]

Looking good so far Edward.

[Edward MacTavish]

These are the knees I have on under the robe,

Edward

[randyshipp]

Asked to lighten up on the armor?

[Lyte]

A question,

Would Norse crusaders, specifically Sigurd I and his crusade in 1107, have a similar "kit" to those of the First Crusade or would they have still have resembled other Northern people like those near the end of the Viking age? I don't know if this should have gone into the "I WTB a VIKING" thread, or maybe dual posted?

[Thaddeus]

Would Norse crusaders, specifically Sigurd I and his crusade in 1107, have a similar "kit" to those of the First Crusade or would they have still have resembled other Northern people like those near the end of the Viking age? I don't know if this should have gone into the "I WTB a VIKING" thread, or maybe dual posted?

The social elite of Scandinavia would have looked very much the part of the typical Western European knight of the day.

[Harry Marinakis]

I too am looking at a southern Germanic/Bavarian knight under King Fredrick Barbarossa, 1152-1190 (leading up to, and into the 3rd Crusade). (Non-SCA)

How accurate is modern dome-riveted mail? Seems you can't find round rings unless they're butted or dome riveted, and you cannot find alternating solid/riveted round rings at all. Would it be better to go with modern dome-riveted round rings, or flat wedge riveted, even though neither is accurate?

Can someone point me a reference that shows anything but nasal helms for the 3rd Crusade, because I haven't found anything that justifies a salt shaker-style helm for this time period.

Daggers for this time period? Yes, no, what kind?

Danke

[William Lee]

I too am looking at a southern Germanic/Bavarian knight under King Fredrick Barbarossa, 1152-1190 (leading up to, and into the 3rd Crusade). (Non-SCA)

How accurate is modern dome-riveted mail? Seems you can't find round rings unless they're butted or dome riveted, and you cannot find alternating solid/riveted round rings at all. Would it be better to go with modern dome-riveted round rings, or flat wedge riveted, even though neither is accurate?

Can someone point me a reference that shows anything but nasal helms for the 3rd Crusade, because I haven't found anything that justifies a salt shaker-style helm for this time period.

Daggers for this time period? Yes, no, what kind?

Danke

Do a search on the "Hortus Deliciarum".

This may also help:

http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_spot_ghelm.html