I wanna be a CRUSADER

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:31 am

Harry,
Sorry I missed the thread here, though I saw some on MyArmoury. The best helm for the 3rd Crusde is likely a conical or hemispherical skull with an attached face mask. Some nasals are expanding into inverted "T" shapes rather than full masks. No plates on the back of the skull lower than the brow though. I think you've already seen the evidence for daggers in the Montecassino manuscript, with it's "proto-baselards".

SigRandr Vadrefjord · Post by **SigRandr Vadrefjord** » Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:29 pm

I have a couple of questions. First does anyone have a pattern for the cape of a crusader? Second can I have a list of Armors who make helms. I know of Icefalcon and West coast. other than that i am lost and to be honest they are out of my price range for someone that is just starting up and being new to the sca. I have seen Ashcraft but no response. I am looking to spend between 250-375 for a starter helm. Great helm or Sugerloaf blackened. I have a small head 22" around brow. thanks for your time thought i would ask here since this is my persona and you all would know best.

Paladin74 · Post by **Paladin74** » Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:32 pm

Do yourself a HUGE favor- avoid Ashcraft like the PLAGUE. There's a whole thread on here about how they've been screwing around with people and their money.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=146903&hilit=Ashcraft+Baker

With that said, utilizing the search function is very helpful in the event you don't get an answer right away. Every person that comes here inevitably asks the same questions that have been answered before. For patterns, check the Pattern Archive on here- altho I do not think Crusaders wore capes per se, they did however wear cloaks; and here's a partial listing of reputable armorers so far as I know them to be.

Icefalcon (quickest turnaround times, solid GOOD customer service)
Pitbull Armory (not sure if he's doing helms atm but it won't hurt to ask)
Shamrock Armoury
West Coast Armory (make sure you talk to Gunther of Orkney on here before placing an order; they'll get it done but there are two different job lines going atm)

On second thought, for that price range (missed it when I first read your post) there's really only one or two places to go where you'll get a good piece.

Hjalmr here on the archive runs his own armory and makes all his wares; his is a rougher-finish look that some of the others but enough folks swear by him that I feel confident enough to list him here.

ArmourerEric is the other one, his is James River Armory and I've seen him put out some decent looking hats at very affordable prices; either of the aforementioned two should suit you nicely.

SigRandr Vadrefjord · Post by **SigRandr Vadrefjord** » Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:29 pm

I would love someday (next couple of years) to be able to afford one of Icefalcon or West coast helm, but do to my financial means right now that is out so i must save. Thanks Paladin for the list of armors.

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:59 pm

I have a couple of questions. First does anyone have a pattern for the cape of a crusader? Second can I have a list of Armors who make helms. I know of Icefalcon and West coast. other than that i am lost and to be honest they are out of my price range for someone that is just starting up and being new to the sca. I have seen Ashcraft but no response. I am looking to spend between 250-375 for a starter helm. Great helm or Sugerloaf blackened. I have a small head 22" around brow. thanks for your time thought i would ask here since this is my persona and you all would know best.

There is a sugarloaf for sale on the AA right now for $280:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=160042

I have no experience with this armourer.

For the "cape", I assume you are speaking of a cope and mantle, such as Templars would have worn?

The cope is usually a "cape" with no hood, and is a half-circle of material. The mantle is a full cloak with hood. It is a full circle of material.

Here is some information to get you started on making cloaks:

https://www.google.com/search?q=how+to+ ... rcle+cloak

Steve

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:07 am

I'm also selling my Knight Templar cope and mantle:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=160058

Steve

Pitbull Armory · Post by **Pitbull Armory** » Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:10 pm

Thank you for the plug Pally, I do take custom orders like helms if its one I think I can do well and feel like building so it never hurts to ask.

Have a good week guys

Pitbull

SigRandr Vadrefjord · Post by **SigRandr Vadrefjord** » Mon Mar 18, 2013 1:56 pm

@ Pittbull email sent!

GardenGnome · Post by **GardenGnome** » Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:33 pm

Of these two books which would you recommend for some insight into crusader fighting kit for the SCA?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/185367 ... 487ZSRFT74

Or

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/184603 ... 2Z363UQFGR

Last one I know is a hospitaller book.

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:58 pm

Nicolle's "Big Green Book, vol.1" is a much better overview. The line drawings are well noted and documented. In today's world, you can use that documentation to search for images of the original sculpture, manuscript, stained glass, or artifact.

GardenGnome · Post by **GardenGnome** » Fri Jun 28, 2013 4:44 pm

Ernst wrote:Nicolle's "Big Green Book, vol.1" is a much better overview. The line drawings are well noted and documented. In today's world, you can use that documentation to search for images of the original sculpture, manuscript, stained glass, or artifact.

Big Green Book, Vol. 1 I take it is my first selection? If that is the case, then would Vol. 2 be worth it?

Thank you as well =D

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Fri Jun 28, 2013 10:28 pm

Volume 2 is concerned with the Byzantines, Middle East, and Eastern Europe for the most part. If your interest lies in Byzantium, Russia, or the Islamic states, go for it.

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Sun Jun 30, 2013 7:46 pm

SigRandr Vadrefjord wrote:I would love someday (next couple of years) to be able to afford one of Icefalcon or West coast helm, but do to my financial means right now that is out so i must save. Thanks Paladin for the list of armors.

http://www.illusionarmoring.com/Helmets.html -- priced in your range, every type you've mentioned.

Aharon Silber · Post by **Aharon Silber** » Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:11 am

Also, Left Hand Armoury makes a AWESOME Norman. Turn around is FAST ( a couple of weeks) and he is very Dependable. The owner is Sir Samuel ('Samuel' on the Archive). If you look in his pics, My helm is the blackened Round Nasal with brass inlay on the nasal. Fits like a glove and is built like a tank.

RandallMoffett · Post by **RandallMoffett** » Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:38 am

Does he have a site?

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:47 pm

Harry Marinakis, and Mlanteigne, see here for images from the Liber ad honorem Augusti of Peter of Eboli, about the Third Crusade from immediately after it happened (within about 5 years, I think). That should answer your questions abut helmets, shields, armour etc. There's a site somewhere on the Net with the full thing, but I couldn't find it at short notice.

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Sun Oct 13, 2013 3:36 am

I just discovered the most amazing resource for early to late 12th century military gear here. Myriads of pictures - Hortus Deliciarum, Peter of Eboli and many I'd never heard of. Worth bookmarking if you're into the 12th century!

Lord Marcus · Post by **Lord Marcus** » Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:43 pm

Has anyone found anything documenting the use of Norman style helms in the crusades? I realize they were starting to be replaced with pot-style great helms, but I'm pretty sure they had not been fully eclipsed by the time of the third crusade.

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Fri Nov 22, 2013 4:36 am

I agree, Marcus. They would still be around, if not necessarily martial fashion's bleeding edge.

Probably still in the kit of the guy who got there earlier.

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Fri Nov 22, 2013 12:37 pm

Has anyone found anything documenting the use of Norman style helms in the crusades?

There are loads of pictures of conical and rounded-top nasal helms up until at least the 3rd Crusade.

Steve

Owen Longstrider · Post by **Owen Longstrider** » Sun Jan 26, 2014 12:13 am

I am a Third Crusader (1190s), but I have a rather anachronistic armor design. My helm has a mail aventail to look like a conal helmet over a mail coif, a simple gorget, a short-sleeved mail half-shirt (really cuts down on the weight

) under a leather coat-of-plates, under a surcoat, leather arms with metal lames and articulated steel elbows, and then leather thighs with articulated steel knees. It may not be historically accurate, but I prefer not to have long mail sleeves and of course it makes due with the armor regulations; I like. I suppose if you have some of the most recognizable elements, it doesn't truly matter how accurate it is.

: Owen 1.JPG (39.36 KiB) Viewed 4278 times

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:18 am

Owen Longstrider wrote:I am a Third Crusader (1190s), but I have a rather anachronistic armor design.
-------------
I suppose if you have some of the most recognizable elements, it doesn't truly matter how accurate it is.

It doesn't appear accurate for the 3rd Crusade. If that isn't high on your priorities, that's your call. The helmet style and a little exposed mail doesn't outweigh the visibility of articulated plate on the joints, and the use of a heraldic surcoat IMO. Some things like the bar-grill and aventail covering added occipital plates as a faux coif are the best solution to maintain an accurate appearance while meeting SCA safety requirements. Others have found ways to adequately protect the joints beneath mail or cloth. Some body armor can be worn beneath mail, eliminating the need for the anachronistic surcoat.

Owen Longstrider · Post by **Owen Longstrider** » Sun Jan 26, 2014 1:25 pm

Like I said, it's not accurate, but I like it. I prefer the articulate joints since they provide more complete coverage. Plus, I often do lectures and demos and the kids really love (and are intimidated) by the clacking of the knees when I walk. Perhaps in the future (when I have a job again and the money to afford it

) I might go for a more accurate design.
However, I am about to start working on a pair of mail leggings, and then later a long-sleeve half-shirt (I have a mail skirt on a belt that when also worn under the surcoat, it looks like I'm wearing a full shirt; really cuts down on the weight

) so I will have a suit of historically accurate non-combat armor; I'll post photos when I'm done.

Glen K · Post by **Glen K** » Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:10 am

Plus, I often do lectures and demos and the kids really love (and are intimidated) by the clacking of the knees when I walk.

Just to clarify: You do educational presentations with armour that you know is inaccurate? Wouldn't it better to at least leave off the articulated pieces and heraldry for interpretive purposes?

Gerhard von Liebau · Post by **Gerhard von Liebau** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:16 am

Glen K wrote:Just to clarify: You do educational presentations with armour that you know is inaccurate?

I concur with the confusion above. Particularly because I know for a fact that the melodic clinking of a hauberk sounds much lovelier than the wrapping clangs of oversized poleyns...

-Gerhard

Owen Longstrider · Post by **Owen Longstrider** » Tue May 20, 2014 1:52 am

Ok, ok, I get it, enough with the questions and hard comments on my apparent stupidity and lack of knowledge

To be honest, this did get me to seriously think about making a more accurate kit, at least appearance wish. Since I wear a surcoat, I would keep the leather coat-of-plates (a friend made it for me, it is so very nice and provides great protection, I just can't part with it

) so that will be covered up, and the helmet is already pretty accurate, and I will probably make the sleeves longer on my mail half-shirt. So, all that I would really need to change is the arms and legs. I have a good idea for the arms; basically a vambrace of plastic lames and a single-piece, wingless elbow cop, all covered in cloth so it looks like a padded gambason underneath. I also plan to make a thin, light under-surcoat (I've seen examples of this in many illustrations, so I know it is accurate), which will also have velcro straps to hold the arms up so they're not sliding down my arm.

My only problem is that I can't come up with a good design for the legs. One thought is to make a pair of full-legs, with a layer of thick leather or plastic lames to cover the thigh (this part would not be seen anyway under the two surcoats), with a single-piece, wingless knee cop, and boots attached to the knees, with mail covering it from above the knees and down to look like I am wearing mail leggings. Or, have boots covered in mail, separate from the thigh and knee armor (still made the same). Yet, I can't seem to think of the logistics of these designs and how they would work-out during use. So, if any of you guys might provide feedback, and perhaps photos of what leg armor you wear, I would REALLY appreciate it. Thanks.

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Tue May 20, 2014 8:04 am

So, all that I would really need to change is the arms and legs.

Not if you're aiming for the 3rd Crusade. If you want to keep the surcoat and "coat of plates", you're looking for something in the 1250-1350 frame, for which the current helmet is not accurate. If you're looking to appear like someone in the 3rd Crusade of 1189-1192, you need to ditch the plates and surcoat, along with the arms and legs.

Gamboissed cuisses appear around 1200-1210, with early plate knees appearing around 1225. Sewing mail over boots has been done by a number of folks, and looks decent enough when worn with a longer surcoat, which works for the later Crusades.

Owen Longstrider · Post by **Owen Longstrider** » Sat May 24, 2014 1:33 pm

Ernst, just to make sure we are on the same page, this is for my SCA Chivalric Combat armor, so I do need arms and legs; I mean no disrespect, just making sure we all understand the subject of this little conversation.

Let me elaborate (for all of you guys);

If you see the photo I previously posted, you can't see the CoP, it is hidden by the surcoat, and as I said, it provides excellent protection for the floating-ribs/kidney area, as well as the chest (I prefer a bit of chest protection against spear thrusts). Yes, I know it is not period, but then I would have to make a whole NEW kidney belt, and right now I am a bit low on money and why make a new piece to replace another perfectly good piece, that is going to be hidden anyway (either under a surcoat or mail shirt); plus, as I said, it was made as a gift to me by a friend, so I don't feel like getting rid of it. Besides, when I am not fighting, I just wear my mail shirt and surcoat, no CoP.

As for the surcoat, I have seen MANY pictures in books, and other 3rd Crusade SCAers who wear a surcoat. As I believe I heard or read, the crusaders wore them to keep the hot sun off their metal mail armor so they could stay cooler in the Middle East, something I believe they adopted from the Arabs. Also, it is a heraldic surcoat, so by wearing it, I stand out. In my mind, just wearing a mail shirt seems too average and plain; many, MANY fighters just wear a mail shirt over their armor, and I feel I will just blend in, not something I want when I want other fighters to remember me on the battlefield.

For instance, this last Gulf Wars was the first where I wore my heraldic surcoat instead of my Ansteorran black and gold tabard in the battles because I didn't want to blend in with the rest of the black and gold of the Ansteorran army. And after the first battle, as I walked back to camp, a guy told me "Dude, I saw you on the field a while ago, you and your kit looked awesome out there."; that made me smile. However, if enough people (and I mean those who have done a lot of research into this kind of stuff, not the poor, unintelligent shmucks; no offense to anyone) recommend going without the surcoat, maybe I will strongly consider it. But, I have always worn a surcoat, a lot people just know me by my surcoat, and it was the look (surcoat over full mail) that drew me to choose Crusader, so I don't see myself getting rid of it.

Hopefully that fully explains those parts. Again, my main question is on how to make the legs so they will provide the require protection, but still look accurate (photos would be very helpful). Thanks.

Oh, by the way, sort of related, I have been working on a pair of full-leg mail leggings (the kind that my persona would have actually worn for leg armor), just for show, not for fighting, and I am almost done. Photos will be posted for display/critique soon, eventually; maybe before the end of the year.

Duncan Von Atzinger · Sat Jun 14, 2014 12:43 pm

Would 12th century Hospitaller wear something like this while fighting?

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 2:28 pm

12th century? Not likely...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Hospitaller

The statutes of Roger de Moulins (1187) deal only with the service of the sick; the first mention of military service is in the statutes of the ninth grand master, Afonso of Portugal (about 1200).

William Lee · Post by **William Lee** » Tue Jun 17, 2014 5:33 pm

Ernst wrote:12th century? Not likely...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Hospitaller
The statutes of Roger de Moulins (1187) deal only with the service of the sick; the first mention of military service is in the statutes of the ninth grand master, Afonso of Portugal (about 1200).

Do you mean the first mention of military service in Hospitaller statutes? There are numerous writings referring to Hospitallers doing military service prior to 1200--otherwise, a lot of dead Hospitaller knights at Ascalon in 1153, and at Hattin on 4 -5 July, 1187 would be very confused....

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:06 pm

Exactly so. I think the only thing before the statutes would be a monastic robe, probably unmarked, and the cloak with small cross, which may or may not have been worn in battle.

Paul de Whitworth · Post by **Paul de Whitworth** » Tue Sep 23, 2014 3:04 pm

http://i.imgur.com/kTS6iga.jpg

Hey guys! I'm looking at around the third crusades as well for my combat persona, however, for me the look is really important and it is hard for me to sacrifice the look with plastic plating and stuff like that.

Is there any advice you guys could give me for making this work without looking like a plastic michelin man. Also, am I right in understanding that metal leggings or greaves were not a footsoldier convention during this era? I guess what my issue is that with the look I'm trying to get, the kinds of armor I am limited to, and have available, hinder movement really badly after having the arming coat, chainmaille, and surcoat on.

THANKS EVERYONE!

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Tue Sep 23, 2014 8:14 pm

Paul,
Simple, wing-less couters can easily be worn beneath an aketon sleeve, as can plastic or leather vambraces. The same is true for SCA required kidney protection. Poleyns on the knee are simply wrong for the 3rd Crusade. Your best bet might be to use a long gown beneath the aketon and mail to cover your leg armor.

If you're going to use long mail sleeves, you really should taper them to get a close fit at the wrist.

And the surcoat only starts showing up around the 3rd Crusade, but is quite rare. As noted before, you really should lose it if you want to look like right.

Paul de Whitworth · Post by **Paul de Whitworth** » Wed Sep 24, 2014 1:55 am

Ernst,

Thank you so much for the information, You were very helpful. Ill probably make a pair of period appropriate baggy pants and hide some knees in there, and I actually have some plastic arm guards which are pretty easy to work with.

Not to mention, I can ditch that pesky surcoat.

I have a bucket helmet, am I good in assuming that style of helmet was around, or was it still primarily kettle hats?

I wanna be a CRUSADER

Re: I wanna be a CRUSADER

Re: I wanna be a CRUSADER

Re: I wanna be a CRUSADER

Re: I wanna be a CRUSADER

Re: I wanna be a CRUSADER

Re: I wanna be a CRUSADER

Re: I wanna be a CRUSADER

Re: I wanna be a CRUSADER

Re: I wanna be a CRUSADER

Re: I wanna be a CRUSADER

Re: I wanna be a CRUSADER

Re: I wanna be a CRUSADER

Re: I wanna be a CRUSADER

Re: I wanna be a CRUSADER

Re: I wanna be a CRUSADER

Re: I wanna be a CRUSADER

Re: I wanna be a CRUSADER

Re: I wanna be a CRUSADER

Re: I wanna be a CRUSADER

Re: I wanna be a CRUSADER

Re: I wanna be a CRUSADER

Re: I wanna be a CRUSADER

Re: I wanna be a CRUSADER

Re: I wanna be a CRUSADER

Re: I wanna be a CRUSADER

Re: I wanna be a CRUSADER

Re: I wanna be a CRUSADER

Re: I wanna be a CRUSADER

Re: I wanna be a CRUSADER

Re: I wanna be a CRUSADER

Re: I wanna be a CRUSADER

Re: I wanna be a CRUSADER

Re: I wanna be a CRUSADER

Re: I wanna be a CRUSADER

Re: I wanna be a CRUSADER